A statue to end all your troubles
A bunch of violent thugs attacked the residence of Kumar Ketkar, editor of Loksatta for writing a satirical piece criticising the Maharashtra government’s decision to engage in monumental folly. In support of Mr Ketkar’s freedom to write what he thought was right, and in support of writing what was right, here are excerpts from the English translation of his editorial.
Naturally, the government felt that having solved all the problems of the people, what remains to be done is to tell the whole world of the greatness of Shivaji. The government has decided to have more than one acre of land inside the sea acquired and filled so as to build the monument, which will attract all global tourists. All facilities will be given to the tourists. There will be a museum near the statue, artifacts of the 17th century, Shivaji’s personal effects, swords and shields and attire. There will also be directives issued by the Maharaj to his administrators on how to govern and make the people happy. Along with the museum, there will be shopping malls, selling T-shirts with Shivaji’s painting. There will be Shivaji key chains, Shivaji gift items, including cutlery.
Of course, there will be no beer bars. So obviously, there will be no dance bars, which the Deputy Chief Minister R.R. Patil detests so much. There will be perhaps wine, which according to the leader of NCP, Sharad Pawar, is not alcohol. So wine will be sold and served along with Coke and Pepsi and other soft drinks. There will be swadeshi McDonald’s as well as vintage Marathi vada-pau, which has been renamed by Uddhav Thackeray as ‘Shiv Vada-Pau’. There will also be ‘pani puri’ sold by the MNS activists of Raj Thackeray. No ‘bhaiyyas’ will be allowed to do business, only locals will be engaged. [IE]
Those concerned about Maharashtra and Mumbai need to explain their quiescence when the plans to revitalise Mumbai city and to turn into into an international financial centre were put in cold storage.
Having nothing much to show for its term in power, the Congress Party-led government is merely stoking up Marathi-chauvinism to distract public attention ahead the coming elections. Voters in Maharashtra should see through the trick.
Ketkar’s argument is spurious and silly. “Solving our problems” and honouring our heroes are mutually exclusive concerns. He seems to be claiming that Indians and Mumbaikars are condemned to not host such symbols of cultural pride as they deem fit, because, you know, they have “problems”. Taken to logical conclusion, this argument would mean that a poor person shouldn’t hang a portrait of his late grand-dad on the wall of his hut, because, well, that’s the privilege of those who live in posh residences — like Ketkar’s, perhaps.
The argument doesn’t seem one about priorities, either. If it was, Ketkar would have suggested that while a desire to honour Shivaji is unexceptionable, spending lots of money on a gigantic statue for him is not the way to go about fulfilling that desire; there are other, less expensive ways to do it.
What’s the article about, then? Lacking the nerve to state that he doesn’t find Shivaji worth honouring, Ketkar pours scorn on him and on the idea to build a statue for him. “Problems” are a handy excuse. I do not condone the action of the thugs — but it is to this provocation that they are reacting.
A far better way of reacting would have been to publish a piece asking Ketkar and his ideological pals some questions in the same heckler’s tone. Why is Ketkar wasting valuable column inches on the issue of a statue when we are faced with the far bigger problem of state-sponsored bandhs in communist-ruled states? (Comrades staged one yesterday, in protest against, well you guessed it, their ally.) Does he think CPIM cadre should be invited from Nandigram to Mumbai to stage a bandh against the statue? Perhaps the staff of Loksatta should counter the big statue on the sea with small ones of Lenin and Stalin instead, which comrades have erected in many village squares across WB and Kerala. VS Naipaul believes that WB comrades will embalm Jyoti Basu when he is gone — what does Ketakar think: should that be the government’s priority given the problems Bengal faces?
Kudos to Kumar Ketkar for speaking truth to power. Satire is a very powerful weapon and the reaction to the piece — violence — merely shows how uncomfortable it makes some people and how powerless they are to reply to the troubling issues that Ketkar raises in his piece.
Well done Mr Ketkar. May your tribe increase.
Oldtimer,
As a private individual, Mr Ketkar is entitled to his ideological biases, and irrational behaviours. As an editor, he is entitled to put across his views, whatever be the ideology behind it, and however irrational or unpleasant it might appear to the reader. How he uses his column inches, or how a poor private person uses his funds (to hang photos if he so wishes) is a private matter. We can criticise it, but those are private decisions.
Whatever might be his ideological biases, I fully agree that it behooves us to question the wisdom of spending public funds to erect a statue in the sea. Especially since the opportunity cost of using public funds for building this monument is so high.
Let’s see the government deliver material well-being first…as I point out, plans for meaningfully improving the city and its future have been abandoned. This appeal to emotions is a cover-up.
Nitin,
I don’t think you got my argument.
I am questioning Ketkar’s premise that the statue should not be built because we have ‘problems’. Cities need monuments. Cities need attractions that citizens can visit and hang around in. Should the beautification of, say, Marine Drive be questioned on the grounds that we have ‘problems’?
I am questioning his tone of heckling. What do paani puri, vada-pav and dance bars got to do with an urban project, for chrissakes?
Actually, even on the question of wisdom in spending public money on erecting a statue, I have a different take. Ketkar’s argument being so lousy, there was no scope for raising it earlier. But now that you’ve mentioned it ..
Late NTR met with similar ridicule for his Buddha Purnima project, which installed a giant Buddha statue in the middle of Hyderabad’s Hussein Sagar lake. He stands vindicated by the fact that the project worked wonders for the city. It breathed new life into a lake that was on the verge of death due to pollution and encroachments. It converted a traffic-choked road — Tank Bund — into a lakefront promenade, adorning it with, guess what, more statues. Lumbini Park, target of terrorist attack last year, was also the outcome of this project. In due course the area grew to encompass a “necklace road” — Hyderabad’s Marine Drive — and more green areas. Today it provides the city its much-needed lung space, and its citizens some public space to visit and relax in in the evenings. And of course, it also gave livelihood to several thousand people who thrive on the commerce in the area.
To Oldtimer,
The writing quoted by Nitin was satirical which has been lost in translation from Marathi to English. The point Ketkar has made is about the irrational expenditure being done on a project. Apart from proving the point that Mumbai is Shivajiland, the entire exercise is useless and is not desired by any Maharashtrian. We would rather prefer the expenditure to be done to improve the situation in Vidharbha or any other issue plaguing the state.
About lacking the nerve to state that Shivaji is not worth honouring, enough honouring of the great man has been done to last for at least a thousand years.
That apart, it is really shameful to see the treatment given to such a stalwart of Marathi journalism. One may not agree with his views but one can only admire the way he writes them without pulling any punches.
Dhananjay,
>>The point Ketkar has made is about the irrational expenditure being done on a project
I agree that the project’s origins are political in nature and dubious. That said, I contend that the argument that public funds should not be spent on grand civic monuments because we have all these problems like poverty, slums etc is a spurious argument. A bakwaas socialist argument.
Does Hyderabad deserve its fantastic new airport? Of course the city needed a bigger airport. But did it have to be this grand, pretending like it was set in Singapore or Amsterdam? Did it have to put on airs, I mean? Perhaps it can aspire for a Changi only when it mirrors Singapore in ALL respects, eh? Wouldn’t something purely functional, with our old socialist-style construction — rectangular concrete blocks and mildewed walls with yellow paint — have done? Of course the government did not build it; assume for argument’s sake that the sector was not privatized and that the only option for building a new airport was with public funds. Then should the government have aimed for the kind of excellence that GMR did? (Bangalore airport did not, by the way, because the government was indeed a big stakeholder in the project.)
Agreed that a public utility and a statue project are not the same. My argument is about the ridiculous notion that we don’t deserver to build grand things in our cities because we have ‘problems’.
Oldtimer,
I contend that the argument that public funds should not be spent on grand civic monuments because we have all these problems like poverty, slums etc is a spurious argument.
And I agree. The argument has to be context-specific.
In this case, my argument is that whatever be the economic rationale for the statue—tourism, jobs, urban aesthetics etc—the project has high opportunity costs. Just look at how those beautiful old buildings in South Bombay are crumbling, the garish neon signs and chartereed-accountants’ signboards stuck onto them without a care for aesthetics. Why not spend the money to revive the public parks, the Hanging Gardens are languishing in disrepair. Aren’t such improvement projects more desirable, cheaper and have greater externalities than a statue in the sea? At the risk of stretching the example to death, in the Hyderabad case, couldn’t the government have made all those urban improvements without actually constructing the statue?
Again, in this context, the statue project is being mooted to cover-up the failings of the government.
Circuses are good for distracting the crowds.
Oldtimer,
Does Bombay or for that matter every city in India require world class sanitation? YES.
Do they require useable roads, buses, bridges, and metros? YES.
Do they require a police force that doesn’t prey on the very people it is meant to serve? YES.
An airport – however grand it is – isn’t a monument. It is a piece of infrastructure. A Shivaji statue is simply a monument and nothing else. The Hyderabad and Bangalore airports will help the economies of their regions. The Shivaji monument will do no such thing.
And then there is something called economics, and priorities. Thanks to civic minded citizens such as yourself the Congress and its thuggish cronies can continue in power indefinitely.
Nitin, I wouldn’t rule out the electorates of Bombay in particular and Maharashtra in general re-lecting the Congress-NCP combine to power. To paraphrase Mencken, no Indian politician has ever lost an election by underestimating the intelligence of his constituents.
Kumar Ketkar deserves kudos for a brilliant editorial. The monument would be an insult to the memory of Shivaji who from all accounts was an an able administrator and just ruler of his subjects. The entire gang – Congress, NCP, and Shiv Sena+ are a bunch of jackasses, who demean the great man’s name when they speak for him.
Kaangeya,
>>Thanks to civic minded citizens such as yourself the Congress and its thuggish cronies can continue in power indefinitely.
No ad hominems please.
I am questioning Ketkar’s claim that we aren’t entitled to build monuments because we are a people burdened by problems. The politics of the moment is irrelevant to this larger point. Any problems with that? Do you think we shouldn’t build anything new till such time as all Indians can afford at least an SUV to drive in to these edifices to gawk at them? I bet we’ll have problems even then, though of a different sort.
Cities need sanitation, roads etc; they also need continuous renewal and a mark left by each generation for the next. Agreed resources need to be channeled according to priorities, but it’s not a complete either-or between infrastructure and monuments. (And by the way, an airport can be a monument too.)
>>A Shivaji statue is simply a monument and nothing else. The Hyderabad and Bangalore airports will help the economies of their regions. The Shivaji monument will do no such thing.
The Statue of Liberty attracts visitors. Thiruvalluvar statue and Vivekananda Rock Memorial off the coast of Kanyakumari attract hordes throughout the year. You need to stand in a long line to board the boat to the Buddha statue in Hyderabad.
I’d say that there’s a case for building monuments whether or not they help local economies. They are investments in culture and heritage. The Swaminarayan sect built some jaw-dropping temples lately. Should they have used the money to feed the poor instead? What would you say to the argument that since many Hindus cannot afford a square meal a day, temple-building should not be a priority? The argument is not about public vs private money, it’s about whether an entity that claims to care for the poor should have directed its resources anywhere other than the poor at all? The way I see it is that the sect has gifted people who shall inherit the planet 300 years down the road some beautiful 300-year old temples. Since government is in the secular space, it needs to concern itself with building secular monuments. Apart from building roads, of course.
Really, how often have politicians desisted from spending public money on projects that serve their private interests? It’s a time honored practice around the world. What’s new about this Shivaji monument that is not old about the Rajiv Gandhi Memorial, the Lenin Mausoleum, or for that matter, the zillions of churches, mosques, and temples on planet earth?
What Ketkar wrote is neither earth-shaking, nor original. If Ketkar had chosen to criticize this, but ignore or condone the other contemporary extravagances of the government, it has shown him up as a politician, too. What is unfortunate and revolting here is that a few politicians and thugs (am I repeating myself?) physically attacking Mr. Ketkar and/or his personal property. Then again, what’s new about that? Didn’t some politician once say that “when order is not justice, disorder is the beginning of justice”?
Oldtimer,
No ad hominem here – I am not dismissing your arguments based on what you wear or look like. All I am saying is that you are civic minded in a certain way. Calling the Congress (or its allies) thuggish for destroying a journalist’s house and all but beating him upo isn’t an ad hominem argument. It is stating a plain fact.
Ketkar doesn’t claim that we aren’t entitled to build monuments, because we are a people burdened by problems. He says -sarcastically of course – that the government is building this monument, concluding that it has solved all our problems. At best he leaves open the offer to support the government should it work on both things at the same time – monumments and problems!
The politics of the moment may be irrelevant, but problems aren’t they are pressing and can even explode. That’s what Ceausescu the late peoples’ leader (aka commie thug) of Romania ignored when he bulldozed thru hte heart of Bucharest to build the Peoples’ Palace – the world’s largest building after the Pentagon. He too thought problems such as 10 km long bread lines, children freezing to death in their cribs in winter, farmers in the countryside eating their horses, were irrelevant – there will always be problems you see?
Do you think we shouldn’t build anything new till such time as all Indians can afford at least an SUV to drive in to these edifices to gawk at them? I bet we’ll have problems even then, though of a different sort. Certainly not. But I certainly think that we shouldn’t build anything else in Bombay until the city has enough clean toilets for each and everyone of its citizens, and there are at least 4 ultra-high capacity bridges linking the island with hte mainland, and the local trains stop resembling sardine cans.
The Statue of Liberty is one among many monuments in the City of New York. But any New Yorker will tell you that what is truly marvellous is that for $7 that is about Rs.250/- you can take as many rides as you want to on the buses and trains of the MTA for 24 hours. NYC has innumerable bridges linking it with the mainland, world class everything, civic services, cops, schools, universities, sporting action, entertainment, food, sleaze – you name it. I don’t want all that in Bombay. I just want enough clean toilets all anywhere within the city.
I’d say that there’s a case for building monuments whether or not they help local economies. Please make your case for building monuments where they hurt/hinder the local economy. It shd be interesting. How does a 100 meter tall Shivaji Statue in Bombay promote culture and heritage? Whose culture and heritage does it promote? Shivaji’s? Do you have any idea why Shivaji rallied 100s of petty chieftains to his side – Muslim and Hindu alike? They were simply fed up with the ruinous war being waged by Aurangazeb in the Deccan that had exhausted his treasury and was now draining their resources as he was forcing them to foot the bill.
the BAPS Swaminarayan folks use their own money, it’s for them to spend it as they see fit. You and I have no business to decide how a private individual spends his own money. There are other Hindu organizations that spend almost everything they have on feeding the poor. Have you heard of the Akshayapatra program in Bangalore? Or what about Swami Dayananda Sarasvati’s AIM-for-SEVA? And of course the Ramakrishna Mission that treats more people for free in Kolkata than the entire number of wretches that had the misfortune to fall prey to the tender ministrations of the Kolkata Ghoul? The BAPS does not claim to care for the poor – never has. It does a lot of good by them – an incredible amount.
Kumar Ketkar is a pompous windbag. Nothing “brave” about his actions.
All of Mumbai’s, India’s or world’s problems have not stopped Ketkar and his cohorts from arranging exotic World Social Forums. The money spent on WSF so far: travel, boarding and lodging expenses, not to mention security, traffic costs, diversion of scarce public resources etc., could well have been used to feed Sudans twiceover.
If Ketkar ever crys for freedom of speech, it would be worth your time to ask him about his stances regarding the Solapur riots, Danish cartoons, or the question of Sonia’s foreign origin and how much space his newspaper ever provided for dissenting views.
Sucker!
Oh, and yes, if this project goes through at the least we’ll get to see a statue or a park or else the locals can kick their government. What’s there to show in the name of NREGS btw? And the money spent is?
I’am really shocked that some of the brightest ppl around have fallen into the standard trap laid by the left-liberals. provoke the people and when ppl retaliate cry that your rights are being violated.
maybe some of us are smart to realise the gameplan of the commies to systematically denegrate the cultural icons of the people at every opportunity so as to finally help usher in their workers paradise.
but most ppl are not so knowledgeable.when hurt either physically or by mere words they get angry and react. so let me take a leaf out of that commie’s own argument. i will condemn this physical assault on him when India’s literacy rate equals 100% and everyone around has turned into scientific rationalists and gain the ability to sift through his arguments and read through all its layered nuances.
what a dolt really! it looks like a cheap desperate attempt by this jhollawallah to raise the flagging circulation of his non-paper.
lets save our sympathies for more deserving people.like the 100 million ppl butchered across the world by these commie thugs since the last 90 years.
Socal, Apollo,
So how is your argument different from that of Mohd Yakoob Qureishi and Chaudhry Virendra Singh? And in turn, theirs from that of Ayatollah Khomeini?
Mr Ketkar’s views don’t matter. It so happens that I agree with him on the issue of the statue. But I’d condemn the thugs who attacked his house even if I had disagreed with him.
Nitin,
Where have I asked for Ketkar’s head to make my argument even remotely akin to that of the thugs you cite above–be it Haji Qureshi, Asaduddin Owaissi, Chaudhary, Khoemini etc.?
Ketkar deployed run-of-the-mill sarcasm to criticize Cong/NCP govt.’s decision with debatable merits and clearly political motive. I have no issue with any of these. But I just wish to ask Ketkar with what credibility is he making those comments. Ketkar’s views do matter because as an editor of a well-read newspaper. Those are not his personal views or doings. He sat in the editor’s chair and selectively condoned the sort of hooliganism that he finds himself to be at the receiving edge today. If he looked the other over similar acts of violence over “hurt feelings,” what right does he have to cry victim today? People like him justify such acts when it suits their agenda. There is neither bravery nor courage nor integrity in his actions. I don’t understand why he’s being made a martyr for reaping whirwind.
One need not agree with Ketkar’s views, views which are too socialist in my opinion. However one does agree with his point on the statue issue. Mumbai has a lot of heritage monuments which can draw tourists. If even a fraction of the budget allocated to the statue is used to develop them, it would benefit Mumbai more. Then there are the problems related to farmer suicides. What would a rational Government give more priority to – a statue of a state icon who last roamed the earth four centuries ago or farmers falling in the debt trap right now?
For those dissing Ketkar, criticize him about his socialism all you want. However comparing him to the communist despots is a bit rich.
Nitin,
I will not condemn the people who attacked him because he taking a leaf from his own argument was not addressing a 100% literate and scientific rationalist audience with a sense of humor.
It shows that while writing for the Indian audience one should be clear and concise and communicate his ideas effectively.
Apollo,
It shows that while writing for the Indian audience one should be clear and concise and communicate his ideas effectively.
There’s no way one can be clear and concise enough so that everybody gets the point, and none takes offence. And there’s no way you can prevent people from taking offence when they do get the point and disagree with it.
It still doesn’t answer my question. Why is your argument different from that of Mr Qureishi and Mr Singh and Ayatollah Khomeini? They too say people should not say offensive things, and if they do, it’s okay to beat them up.
Hello Dhananjay,
>>Then there are the problems related to farmer suicides. What would a rational Government give more priority to – a statue of a state icon who last roamed the earth four centuries ago or farmers falling in the debt trap right now?
Since we’re soooo fixated on either this or that …
What should a rational government do — weed out the last terrorist and make sure there are mo more train bombings and no more innocent people killed OR lend credence to leftwing hyperbole on exaggeration of farmer suicides issue?
As an aside, all ye so impressed by Comrade Ketkar’s ground-breaking “satire”, please take note: in the list of problems he “sarcastically” enumerates solved, terrorism doesn’t figure. Words flow out of his pen like Mandakini (the river, silly, not Dawood’s keep) rushing down the rocky slopes of Himalayas. With a broad sweep, they touch upon problems as vexatious and contentious as farmers’ debts, malnutrition, unemployment, unemployment again, irrigation, irritation, food shortage, droughts, load-shedding, etc, etc. He satirically envisions all these solved and thus sarcastically approves the idea of the statue, but leaves you guessing whether or not terrorism is a problem worth solving in the satirical genius’ worldview.
In case you’re wondering what Mandakini is doing in my comment above, the reason is profound. You need to look deep and understand why Ketkar mentioned Vada-Pav and Paani Puri. And then it’ll strike you like lightening.
There’s no way one can be clear and concise enough so that everybody gets the point, and none takes offence. And there’s no way you can prevent people from taking offence when they do get the point and disagree with it.
Nitin,
exactly my point. he could have made a better case against government wastage than he has done. he should have been more clear in his communication.
Apollo,
It’s diametrically opposite to your point. It’s impossible to satisfy your condition. Why should those who make a less than “better case” be beaten up? Rather, why should you not condemn the thugs who beat up people who don’t write clearly? He was writing satire and using sarcasm. Should those who don’t “get it”, or get offended by it, beat him up? Or rather, we should find nothing wrong in the actions of those who beat such people up?
Apollo,
May I point out that labeling people commies merely because we find their views disagreeable reduces debate to name-calling. (Not to mention its belittles the crimes of the REAL communists.)
The central issue here is not Ketkar’s views. Most certainly, a case can be made that beautification projects or even statues need not wait the solution of all problems in the land. Public interest would demand a proper cost-benefit analysis of the proposed project and see if the benefits justify the costs. From what limited information is available in public domain, and considering how statues have been substituted for governance by so many politicians, in my opinion, the expenditure of 200 crores is not justified. But as I already conceded, this question is open for debate.
What is not open for debate or should not be open for debate in a civilized democracy is the use of violence to silence opposition. Nothing stopped the people who found Ketkar’s views unpalatable to voice their opposition in a peaceful way. Indeed, if his views were so offensive, people can punish him by refusing to read his newspaper. Instead, a group of 50 ruffians, appointed themselves as representatives of Marathi pride and stoned Ketkar’s house. Pray, on what basis can their action be justified?
You refuse to condemn the thugs because Ketkar allegedly committed the crime of not being clear in his writing. Well, I understood his article perfectly. As I suspect did countless others. May be some did not. But I hope you realize that is a subjective judgment. Can you supply a template which would ensure clarity to all Indian citizens?
Taking your position to its logical conclusion, I would be well within my rights to stone your house because I did not quite understand your logic. Which, incidentally, I did not.
Will you condone that too?
“Instead, a group of 50 ruffians, appointed themselves as representatives of Marathi pride and stoned Ketkar’s house. Pray, on what basis can their action be justified?”
There is no evidence that the “ruffians” acted violently “as representatives of Marathi pride.” They might have acted as Marathi individuals whose pride was hurt, and not for Marathi people.
As for the justification: perhaps they were aware of Ketkar’s views on several issues where he condoned or justified violence as being borne out of grievances whose root cause needs to be addressed.
They might have hoped that Ketkar would not cry foul, and would rather do some soul searching or prompt a search for root causes thus drawing attention to their grievances. Yes, they could do this peacefully by not reading his paper, but their recent experience might have prompted them to take result-oriented steps that Kumar Ketkar had himself helped legitimize through his editorials.
Socal,
If you read my comment, you would notice that I use ”self appointed.” No one is saying that Marathi people as a collective appointed them as their representative. That makes it even worse you know.
If Ketkar has justified violence, then it deserves to be condemned. It does not mean that you start throwing stones at his house. That would be akin to endorsing someone whose views you ostensibly oppose.
The central question is this: Do you support use of violence as a tool of political discourse?
Rohit,
Just Google Ketkar’s name and decide for yourself whether he is a commie or not.find out his views on Nandigram for example.
if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck. it is one :).just don’t jump to conclusions that i’am calling someone a commie without checking up on him :).
Nitin,
no it is exactly the same point. he has to be clear in communication, that is his job, his bread and butter. he is not some part time writer. so he should have made it very clear that he is criticising the government’s profligacy and not their cultural icon as he is claiming now.
even i would have loved it if India was 100% literate, everyone were scientific rationalists with the ability to peel thru all the layered nuances of his writing and had a great sense of humor. alas the reality is very different. if he is going to throw stones at a largely illiterate and emotional crowd from a public podium he will have to bear the consequences and frankly like i said before i would rather save my sympathies for some more desreving ppl. maybe journalists who really take their work seriously and many who have risked/laid down their lives in the line of duty to bring out the truth. There are many of them around and Ketkar definitely is not one of them.
Apollo,
You are yet to answer why your argument is different from Qureishi, Singh or Khomeini?
So okay, Indians are not literate, therefore not mature enough to handle free speech. So let’s curb free speech. That sort of argument is to be found up north, in Beijing. Or due West in Islamabad. Remember what Musharraf says about democracy…”give us time, we are getting ready for democracy”.
So perhaps you should tell us that if our people are not literate and rational enough not to be able to handle offensive writing, should they really be entrusted with a vote? Surely, illiteracy and irrationality didn’t get in the way of universal suffrage. Why should it get in the way of free speech? [btw, how do you know those thugs were illiterate?]
So Ketkar is a Communist. So why should that matter? I’m not arguing that we should not spare him in public debate—go after his arguments, pin him down on his faults, but it is entirely another thing to condone violence by those who disagree.
Should we as bloggers accept that people who disagree with our writing can corner us in the street and beat us up. And cite illiteracy and scientific irrationality as valid defence?
So how is it the same point? I’m saying your argument is absurd because you can’t hope that everyone will get exactly what you mean. Sure, one has to try and be clear if one hopes to get the message across to a lot of people, but it’s absurd to say that one should not (at the pain of being beaten up by thugs) make a point until one is entirely sure that people won’t be offended.
So Ketkar is a Communist. So why should that matter? I’m not arguing that we should not spare him in public debate—go after his arguments, pin him down on his faults
ofcourse Nitin, we can go ahead and do just that. each of our blogs is littered with posts fisking that article or this by one crazy commie or the other. so go right ahead and add one more.and we all know it won’t make a dime of a difference.maybe he and his friends in the MSM will then reward u with a stamp of “right wing Hindutva propogandist” for all ur efforts.
and U spoke abt Khomeini and Co. well nitin, try criticising any of them and see what this Ketkar and his friends will be saying about u after that. and if some fundamentalist attacks u then check back to see whether he has returned the favor by unequivocally condemning those who attacked u or has equivocated both u the victim and the attackers something along the lines of he condemns both and that somehow ur responsible for ur own plight.
For example here is the line that Ketkar and his friends in the MSM take when someone else’s freedom of speech is being violated.incidentally this happened in his own home state.
PUNE: Orkut, the popular social networking site, is in the news again. The cyber cell of the city police crime branch has arrested Rahul Krishnakumar Vaid (22), an IT professional of Gurgaon, Haryana, for allegedly uploading obscene and derogatory text about Congress party chief Sonia Gandhi on Orkut[Link.
No hue and cry about the inviolability of Freedom of Speech by any one in the media here.No talk about the right to offend. The MSM in that report has clearly bought the line that it is ok to criticise someone unless one is not being vulgar and offensive about it. with which i totally agree and i’am using the same yardstick to measure a supposedly respected member of the MSM Mr Ketkar and he is falling woefully short on that count.he has unnecessarily used vulgar and derogatory language to make his point.
Apollo,
As I’ve said, Mr Ketkar’s views don’t matter. He could well be opposed to free speech. This is not about his yardsticks, or Khomeini’s yardsticks. This is about the kind of yardsticks we’d like to see.
“each of our blogs is littered with posts fisking that article or this by one crazy commie or the other. so go right ahead and add one more. and we all know it won’t make a dime of a difference”.
When are you going to trade your keyboard for a real catapult?
Rohit,
“If you read my comment, you would notice that I use ‘’self appointed.” No one is saying that Marathi people as a collective appointed them as their representative. That makes it even worse you know.”
Those guys don’t need any self-appointment to represent themselves. They were acting in self-capacity and in that sense they were not representing Marathi people but Marathi inviduals i.e., themselves. Anyway, this “self-appointed” charge is quite ridiculous. We witness the charade of parties with govt. in 2-3 states or no states speaking for “people” every now and then. I don’t see what would be unusual about these ruffians even if they had claimed to represent Marathi people. Apart from being a recurring talking point “self-appointment” doesn’t reflect any more or less on the intensity of issue.
“If Ketkar has justified violence, then it deserves to be condemned. It does not mean that you start throwing stones at his house. That would be akin to endorsing someone whose views you ostensibly oppose.”
The central question is this: Do you support use of violence as a tool of political discourse?”
The issue is not whether I endorse or oppose Ketkar or the rowdies, since my opinion is going to have little or no effect on either.
The issue is whether the stuff Ketkar has been spouting from his bully pulpit (being self-appointed judges of public conscience that editors are) and whether his readers/customers can hold him to his words or not, in a manner that Ketkar himself has condoned at times, that too only recently.
With janus-tongued editors like Kumar Ketkar, freedom of press/speech will always be on the defensive. There is no reason to take sides here since Ketkar has brought it upon himself. The choice is between two evils. I would rather savor the schadenfreude from sidelines.
“It takes more courage to stand up to your friends” – Albus Dumbledore, very aptly quoted by Nitin elsewhere.
Rohit, Nitin,
I hope the easy way quite a few say here “But Ketkar is a Kommie!” and expect it to be a klinching argument( they seem to be genuinely puzzled that is not the end of the conversation ) gives you some pause and disquiet.
I agree with Oldtimer on one small specific point: sharply defined, honouring our heroes and solving problems like poverty are separate issues- but disagree with the rest. While these are NOT absolutely mutually exclusive, they compete for resource allocation and need to be justified. I dont think the benefits from tourism to the Shivaji statue are worth the costs.
I think one easy way out is to enable ppl to have their say on such projects, its their money after all: let it be put to vote in Mumbai, and if the crore+ ppl slumming it out decide the Chatrapati is more important than say their own ‘Chatra’, we should go ahead.
rgds,
Jai
To Oldtimer:
I do not get it. You say that the suicide problem is overrated. Have you been there? Over 1500 farmer suicide in the past one year is mere hyperbole for you?? Loadshedding, unemployment, suicides, malnutrition are cold realities in interior Maharashtra which do not require any hyperbole to describe them.
Ketkar not mentioning terrorism does not dilute his argument any which way.
Hello Dananjay,
>>I do not get it. You say that the suicide problem is overrated. Have you been there?
I do not get it either. Is that your answer to my question:
“Since we’re soooo fixated on either this or that …
What should a rational government do — weed out the last terrorist and make sure there are mo more train bombings and no more innocent people killed OR lend credence to leftwing hyperbole on exaggeration of farmer suicides issue?”
Why do you think the government should allow terrorists to kill innocent people? Have you been “there”? Do you have any friends or family members who boarded a local train and lost their lives, or worse yet, became cripples for life?
To Oldtimer,
the view of the people, especially those who pay taxes and vote for the government, should determine weather the government should target that last terrorist or solve the farmer ‘suicide problem’. Kelkar being a tax payer, is well within his rights in questioning the logic of putting a statue in the arabian sea.
Hello Dark Lord,
Are you following the discussion? I am asking Dhananjay why he believes that the government should let terrorists kill innocent people. If you also share his belief, feel free to provide an answer.
oldtimer is asking those have you stopped beating your wife type questions
What about Dr. Ambedkar statues spread throughout the country. Since we havent solved the inequality problem, I wonder how many of these so called intellectuals will raise their fingers for the removal of Ambedkars statues?
Hello xyz,
>>oldtimer is asking those have you stopped beating your wife type questions
Given your eagerness to put my questions into this type or that, you sound like an experienced typist, but not. That was not have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife type question. It was a have-you-been-there-and-ever-been-a-farmer-that-committed-suicide type question.