On psywar and sedition

And demonstrating resolve

Twenty prominent personalities have written an op-ed arguing that India cannot afford to fall victim to a psywar (linkthanks Yazad Jal).

Some stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect any growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of enemies of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both within and outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to entertain the hope that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede from India.

National will is a critical component of state power. In the absence of military might, psychological warfare is the weapon of choice of a devious adversary to attempt to break national will, and to also confuse and demoralise the Indian state. No nation aspiring to become a major player in global power dynamics can afford to fall victim to such psywar.

India cannot and must not give any signal that could be misinterpreted to mean that its national resolve to preserve its unity and integrity is crumbling. [ExpressBuzz]

They end their piece calling for the Indian government, political parties and people to unequivocally signal a commitment to India’s territorial integrity.

They are right to point out the effect that a perceived weakening of Indian resolve will have in the minds of Kashmiri separatists and Pakistani strategists. As Praveen Swami’s excellent India, Pakistan and the Secret Jihad describes all too clearly, India ends up suffering for the errors of judgement made by deluded Pakistani strategists who are keen to jump at the smallest sign of weakness on India’s part.

While they rightly criticise the media for giving way too much prominence to the “let Kashmir go” perspective, they could well have made these points without criticising the freedom of expression or describing views to the contrary as “seditious”. Actually winning the public debate by prevailing over pro-secessionists (and not by merely shutting them out) can send an even stronger signal to secessionists and deluded Pakistani strategists.

63 thoughts on “On psywar and sedition”

  1. I find it difficult to ‘win the public debate’, with MSM going hammer n tongs to give away Kashmir. Speak otherwise and you are an illiberal Hindutva fascist …

  2. hey could well have made these points without criticising the freedom of expression or describing views to the contrary as “seditious”.

    I agree. If the expression of such views is curbed,they’ll simply go underground and develop into more malicious forms and spread without the mainstream knowing about it.

    Our part of the psywar must be to allow these views to come into full public view, then defeat them by logic and persuasion in public view. This will preempt their development into more malicious forms. And when you convincingly win an argument in public, the results stay in the people’s minds for a long time.

  3. Our part of the psywar must be to allow these views to come into full public view, then defeat them by logic and persuasion in public view.

    Sound in theory, problematic in practice. Because victory and defeat aren’t well defined here. Because the defeat-worthy shift goal-posts, muddle issues, divert the topic, in general spread vitriol making civil debate difficult and otherwise drawing upon a wide open toolbox of means to derail debate at the very first whiff of defeat for their side.

    Would you, sir, consider having open debate on the virtues or otherwise of a truly taboo topic such as, say, ‘the righteousness of the Nazi cause’ or ‘child p0rn0graphy’? And why not? Because debating these topics implies the other side has a valid point and perspective to start with. Dangerous in the hands of the like of Pak strategists and jihad-inspired split-India hordes, at the best of times, IMHO.

    The psy-war currently being waged is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt about India’s moral and legal right to the entire state of J&K.

    JMTs etc.

  4. I’m not surprised at the arrogance and language of this article. There are 20 signatories to this article and 16 of them are either from the military or from various divisions of Government. Three are corporate heads and 1 journalist. There’s nothing wrong with the group, but I don’t think this group even remotely represents the will of the people of Kashmir. All I’m saying is how unbiased can their views be when majority of this group (80%) has been at war with Kashmir for over 30 years and they see a Pakistani hand in everything.

    Military/Government Heads

    Maj Gen Afsir Karim (retd)
    Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB
    Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary
    Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief
    Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd)
    Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary
    G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan
    Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs.
    CD Sahay, former Secretary (RAW)
    Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army Staff
    Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security Advisor and Secretary National Security Counsil
    Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff
    Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief
    Ved Marwah, former Director General National Security Guard and former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand
    Vijay Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi
    Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW)

    Corporate Heads

    Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group
    Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group
    K Memani, Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young.

    Solitary Journalist

    MJ Akbar, Renowned journalist

    Its easy for them to offer staple, oft-repeated accusations of sedition. It is part of their institutionalization.

  5. @Navneet: and do you think you’re making a fair assessment by questioning their background instead of tackling the points they make? Besides, even if you want to continue to do so, get your facts right because:

    Navneet: All I’m saying is how unbiased can their views be when majority of this group (80%) has been at war with Kashmir for over 30 years and they see a Pakistani hand in everything.

    They have not been at war *WITH* Kashmir.

  6. ‘Some stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising nonchalance and lack of depth,’

    —Their preposterousness is not heartrending as generally perceived; rather it’s a well premeditated craftiness, expecting exactly the desired reaction.

    Ignore them,be indifferent, let go of them, deny their very existence, starve them of all response, whatsoever, let the parasites perish hankering for attention.

  7. Pakistani list

    Military / Government Head
    Dififjeo
    Fkldfofp
    Ffpo

    Corporate Heads
    Aidi
    Fkef
    O0ee

    Solitary Pakistani Loyalist

    Navneet (Undercover ISI Commander).

  8. I think its fair to question the background of the signatories because the military position is well known, both in ideology and action. They’ve been demonstrating it for three decades. It can hardly be taken to represent the views of anyone outside the political establishment.

    That does not mean that these people are wrong. But they have been involved “in” Kashmir on the opposite side and hence their position should come as no surprise. They have been charged with ensuring that Kashmir is not let go by the institutions to which they belong. It is a conditioning of their job.

    I’ll try to put it another way. Let’s say an open letter is sent out to the Government of India in the name of People of India demanding that India be made into an Islamic State. And twenty people sign it of which 80% of the signatories are Mullahs or Maulvis of a mosque. Would you take that demand seriously as representing the demand of people of India? I know I wouldn’t. That does not mean there is something wrong with being a Mullah or a Maulvi.

    And besides if these twenty people from the military and corporate sector should be heard, it is only fair to hear the millions from Kashmir. That is all, the so called “seditious intelligentsia” is trying to point out.

  9. Navneet,

    Please spare us this “hearing the Kashmiri people” storyline. The democratic way of expressing your voice is through elections, whether it is in J&K or anywhere else in India.

    As for op-eds, when was the last time twenty Kashmiri separatists wrote an op-ed trying to convince the others of their point of view? They are far more ready to use Master Cells, Al-Fatahs, JKLFs, hijackings, AK-47s and suchlike.

    The demands they make need to be evaluated on merit, not on who the people are. Or, as Mr Aam Insaan says, we could just as well label you an ISI agent discount everything you say.

  10. @Navneet: A lot of people take the position (in all kinds of discussions) that it is fair to question someone’s background. Yes, it is. But only to the extent of deciding – at a personal level – whether you should pay attention to them or not. Not while engaging in a discussion.

    Tomorrow, if Mr. AB Vajpayee decided to lecture on Operating Systems’ Architectures, I’d ignore it completely. However, this kind of questioning of background is *not* fair if one is going to indulge in a discussion. That discussion *must* be focussed on the content rather than the person for it to be productive. So, I might dismiss ABV’s talk on Operating Systems’ Architectures and pay no attention to it, but if I want to discuss it, I *must* discuss it on the merits of his talk – because for all I know, he got Bill Gates and Linus Torvalds to write his speech for him and may be he did talk sense.

    If you are going to take the easy route of dismissing people’s opinions on the basis of something in their backgrounds, then you are going to open yourself up for getting labelled as an ISI agent (and whatever else) because people don’t know anything whatsoever about *your* background.

    It applies even more to internet discussions. No one knows anyone, and no one is going to post one’s resume every time he/she posts a comment somewhere. Discussing people’s backgrounds is completely pointless.

    PS: this is not to say that I’ve never done it. Guilty as charged, even before you charge me. But I am not going to say that I wasn’t wrong on those occasions.

  11. @Nitin: The demands they make need to be evaluated on merit, not on who the people are.

    Yes master, as you say, since you are the bearer of national interest, I hope I qualify or else you and your menacing fellow jingoists may condemn me to doom as an ISI agent.

    I dare not bring the boring and trite “hearing the Kashmiri people” story since, our beloved India-held-elections, (which are heavily boycotted) are the only right way to express an opinion.

    I am so foolish, master, for not understanding that the military position is convenient to National Interest and hence has merit and while I, a humble subject of this Nation, know of all these other stories and voices from Kashmir op-edding and screaming and showing pictures:

    CRPF administers ‘patriotic’ dose to 56-yr old
    Mooj Kasheer
    Many Op-Eds by seperatists

    they shouldn’t have any bearing on our positions. We can just ignore them. They have no merit.

    I am foolish for not understanding, despite all the years of my head being drilled with Nationalism, that Monolithic National Interest is all I am supposed to blindly follow and always remember that I am an Indian before I am a human being.

    We should write off all their stories as lies because these trite “Kashmiri People stories” are not really part of National Interest.

    Let us rejoice in never, never, never, never, ever ever ever giving up the land of Kashmir.

    May I tremblingly make a suggestion Fuhrer. It might be a good idea to understand the other side of Kashmir because once you do, you may or may not realize that while the occupier sees the land and his claims over it, he rarely sees the people on that land. And the occupied only see the oppression and rarely the humanity of the people in whose name the occupation is done. This is lesson of history which someone as wise as yourself should be familiar with.

    One more small pearl of wisdom, master, which may or may not register with you. Dissident voices on Kashmir are not a monotheistic abstraction like National Interest. They are varied and so are their demands. However the “seditious intelligentsia” in India are basically saying something on these lines:

    a) Remove the military from Kashmir asap
    b) Bring to justice those soldiers who have indulged in human rights violations
    c) Pay repatriations to those whose family members have disappeared under Special Powers Act
    d) Negotiate a right to return for Kashmiri Pundits
    e) Demand that Pakistan withdraw its military forces from POK
    f) Conduct a referendum to let the Kashmiris decide (including the Kashmiri Pundits and those living in POK) whether they want to be with India, Pakistan or a free nation.

    Would you please let us know, master, what demands from here do you deem merit worthy?

  12. Navneet,

    Oh, spare me the sarcasm. And the sanctimony. If you do, perhaps I might even take time to appreciate your comments.

  13. @navneet,

    Dissident voices on Kashmir are not a monotheistic abstraction like National Interest.

    Dude, are you out of your mind? The dissident voices in Kashmir have only one basis: monotheism! In fact, you can easily cast the whole debate on Kashmir as a conflict between intolerant monotheism vs tolerant polytheism.

    You are driving on the wrong side of the road, dude!

  14. @Navneet,

    And just why should I accept you as the voice of the “seditious intelligentsia”? Did they elect you? What gives you the right to speak for anyone other than yourself? Dude, you need irony supplements.

  15. I am not sure what’s the issue with calling an article of speech as seditious if it qualifies being seditious?

  16. What is _your_ background, Comrade Navnit? Asking as I generally see cubed out and squared off chaps lapse into “sarcasm” when they run out of logic.

  17. Sud,

    What you’re saying is that by allowing them to air their opinions, we are allowing them to set the agenda. Some sort of reference point from which the debate goes on, a point that they’ve set and not us.

    That’s why I stress the importance of preemption. First, we’ve allowed all these worthies to rise to a position where their opinions are considered important enough to be published as Op-Ed specials. Then, when they do publish, there’s nobody from the govt. or the intelligentsia publishing counter articles the very next day. How many times have you seen Arundhati Roy’s arguments being refuted in an Op-Ed the next day in the same newspaper? Where’s that sustained campaign to refute anti-national views?

  18. I do understand when you say “Sound in theory, problematic in practice.” But problematic in practice because we havent yet developed the capabilities. The other side already has a start. They’ve infiltrated our media, NGOs, human rights organizations etc. But why have we failed to plant and nurture pro-India voices in the media, NGOs and human rights organizations?

    We have been so unprepared for this psywar. We suddenly woke up someday, read those articles and said to ourselves “What the hell is happening!” Well, a lot has happened already and we just came to know about it. We were caught completely unawares.

  19. @Oldtimer,

    I am not sure what’s the issue with calling an article of speech as seditious if it qualifies being seditious?

    Just that I find the concept of sedition incongruous in a liberal democracy. Moreover, in practice, it is rather easy to employ it against any critic of the government. Sedition, like many a ‘crime’ in the Indian Penal Code is a hangover of the British colonial raj that we would do well to get rid of.

  20. @Navneet:

    Looking past the attempts at sarcasm and the selective quoting of news/history.. are you really simple-minded enough to believe in your 6-point program? Or is it just that you like to sound contrarian like most in the media – after all dog biting man is no news?!

    What do you take Pakistani politicians/military/intelligence for? Selfless saints?

    The Kashmiri Pundits now have to ‘negotiate’ their right to return to their homeland while we unilaterally move our forces and just ‘demand’ that Pak go away?

    Sheesh.. if only people would think clearly for a moment!

    Or should I indeed attribute this to malice instead of stupidity?

  21. @photonman: Thanks. It seems to have been wasted on the intended recipient though!

    @Navneet: Ooh, what biting sarcasm! And a mention of Hitler! Frankly, I hadn’t expected Herr Fuhrer to be mentioned before 53 comments or so. A true Jedi move if there ever was one. Clearly, you have won this debate on the strength of your arguments. My compliments.

    Nevertheless, let us take these “demands” one by one:

    Remove the military from Kashmir asap

    I like the “asap” that you put in there, but as long as cross-border infiltration continues, this is going to be rather difficult (needless to say, the troops will remain on LoC at all times, it is the cities from which they might be withdrawn). It has already been said by GoI that the troop levels in J&K are under continuous evaluation. If the situation changes, the troop levels will change.

    b) Bring to justice those soldiers who have indulged in human rights violations

    I agree. Allegations of human rights’ violations must be investigated. Those found guilty must receive punishment according to the law.

    c) Pay repatriations to those whose family members have disappeared under Special Powers Act

    This is tied up with the above point. The compensation would be due to those who are victims of HR abuse, regardless of the act under which they disappeared or were abused.

    d) Negotiate a right to return for Kashmiri Pundits

    Negotiate with whom? Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri pundits too, doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the “kashmiriyat” of Kashmiri muslims make them call their Hindu kashmiri brethren back?

    e) Demand that Pakistan withdraw its military forces from POK

    Good luck with that one. Amazing that there are no living members of a “seditious intelligentsia” in Pakistan demanding such things (will be glad to be proven wrong on this one).

    f) Conduct a referendum to let the Kashmiris decide (including the Kashmiri Pundits and those living in POK) whether they want to be with India, Pakistan or a free nation.

    Yeah, Pakistan is just waiting for someone to suggest this completely new idea of conducting a referendum. Oh wait.. never mind.

    Funnily enough, what are you going to do after such a referendum? Ever thought about that? Say, 30% demand to be with India, 40% demand to be with Pakistan and 30% demand independence. What then? Feel free to tweak the figures and generate a matrix of your subsequent actions.

  22. @BOK,Navneet:

    Navneet: Remove the military from Kashmir asap.
    BOK: I like the “asap” that you put in there, but as long as cross-border infiltration continues, this is going to be rather difficult (needless to say, the troops will remain on LoC at all times, it is the cities from which they might be withdrawn). It has already been said by GoI that the troop levels in J&K are under continuous evaluation. If the situation changes, the troop levels will change.

    Actually, the first step in that direction was taken some years back when security of Srinagar was handed to BSF and CRPF. Army troops are not even allowed to enter the city. I’ve seen officers who’ve had to change into civvies for a trip to the city. That is unlike any other restriction placed on the army in rest of India.

    Navneet: b) Bring to justice those soldiers who have indulged in human rights violations.

    Already being done. If these actions are not highlighted enough, its only because due process takes time and our media is, well, the less said the better.

    Navneet: d) Negotiate a right to return for Kashmiri Pundits.
    BOK:Negotiate with whom? Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri pundits too, doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the “kashmiriyat” of Kashmiri muslims make them call their Hindu kashmiri brethren back?

    Personal opinion: Kashmiriyat is an illusion.

  23. Navneet (Undercover ISI Commander)- Code Name- Mir Jaffer.
    Exposed!
    “I am foolish for not understanding, despite all the years of my head being drilled with Nationalism, that Monolithic National Interest is all I am supposed to blindly follow and always remember that I am a Pakistani before I am a human being.”
    —-Then go complain to Kyani, why Nitin?? Is India monolithic?? Duh.
    “May I tremblingly make a suggestion Fuhrer.”
    –Want to experience the wrath of the Fuhrer—
    — stand right in middle of Rawalpindi bathiyar galli & for a change debate Kashmir for India.
    “It might be a good idea to understand the other side of Kashmir”
    What is there to understand?? Ingratitude?? Duh, it’s Simply a Real Estate dispute for the other side & we the wise men are very much familiar with the devious & treacherous blueprint of your cross border ‘Masters’ (yuck), & we know ‘This is lesson of history’,& not in theory & we have 61 yrs. of first hand experience of it & hold this ‘pearl of wisdom’ in our hearts of hearts very dearly so as not to meekly succumb any more.
    “these lines:”
    “e) Demand that Pakistan withdraw its military forces from POK”
    —– This is the first clause that Pakistan had promised in writing to The U.N. & had your Aka’s adhered to it, then the rest would have followed automatically & got over with 60 year back, & today we would not have had to bear your ‘Oh, so, Holier than thou’melodrama. But be rest assured you would still have had a lot of work at hand—Junagadh, Hyderabad……
    —GO-GO & debate Point (e) of your diatribe in ‘Lal Masjid’, Lahore.
    YaAllah, yeh chulu bar paani mein dhoob marte kyon nahin? Reham!

  24. When was the last time India actually fought and got back something? Not in last 1000 years I think.

    OK, before you jump in, NO we did not WIN our freedom !!!! Sorry won’t agree. We won because, some guy in Germany was evil enough to become a nasty pain in Britain’s butts, around 1940s

    No we din’t win ANY war with Pakistan. We in fact lost, more than 1/3rd of Kashmir which is with Pakistan already and the remaining Kashmir itching to go that way. It’s a myth that we won war with Pakistan. I am not saying militarily. I am saying politically we lost (with Simla agreement). We “gave away” the huge gains made by our brave men.

    Other countries have a “template” of bravery, that future generations look up to and follow. We don’t have that template. A template that gives us a tangible feeling of “winning a battle”. When britishers were running all over us, we decided to “fast”, make “khaadi” and burn candles for peace.

    Our so called historians have already buried deep, whatever folk heroes,stand up guys and fighters India ever produced (Shivaji, Rana Pratap, Prithviraj).

    Point is, we are now conditioned to “burning candles” at Wagah border. Even for our “rights” we are indulging in appeasing and bending over backwards. That is now our template. “Give us peace, but leave us alone. Take whatever you want. Don’t ask us to fight”

    We are a nation deprived of the right templates.

  25. @NotReallyAnonymous: I knew about the withdrawal of Indian Army from Srinagar. But I had a feeling that Navneet would not consider them “non-military”, hence my response. About kashmiriyat, well.. I agree with you, and that’s why I’d put it in quotes. If there was such a thing, Kashmiri Pundits wouldn’t have had to leave their lives behind.

  26. @B.O.K.: Apologies for the double comment. In my previous comment, “them” refers to CRPF/BSF (if I am not mistaken, it is the CRPF which is present in Srinagar) and not the Indian Army.

  27. Navneet – With whom do we have to negotiate our “right to return” to Kashmir?
    In case you forgot: Pandits are the indigenous Kashmiris.
    And this indigenous population was ethnically cleansed from Kashmir in 1989 by the majority Kashmiri Sunni Muslims.

  28. >>Just that I find the concept of sedition incongruous in a liberal democracy.

    Nitin,

    I’d draw the line for my liberalism at not tolerating anything that’s inimical to the interests of India. I believe I can’t afford to be liberal if I don’t enjoy the protection of the laws of India.

  29. “enjoy the protection of the laws of India.”

    Killing the Nation’s army men, terrorizing the Nation, conniving with enemies, vulgar display of religious fanaticism, bigotry, abusing the Nation & apolitical armed force & insulting National symbols & destroying National Property, treachery& all such devious acts must be seen to be most amicable & well within the purview of liberality by the state & must enjoy the protection & favour of the laws of India.

  30. @Trilok,
    I am aware of the atrocities committed on the Kashmiri Pundits and how they were systematically driven out of Kashmir by the insurgency. I also see the exploitation by the Indian State when using the name of Kashmiri Pundits it continues its power play with Pakistan over Kashmir. The Indian Government uses Kashmiri Pundits and the Pakistan Government uses Kashmiri Muslims.

    This cycle of violence can never come to an end if the belligerence from both sides carries on. I hope you agree that the present situation of military occupation, from both sides, of a divided Kashmir cannot continue. The LOC is really a Pakistan-India construct and is detrimental to Kashmir’s return to peace.

    While we shouldn’t ever forget our histories, it is painful and unhelpful to cling to histories when they are soaked in blood and use that memory to make decisions about the present. India has fallen victim to that folly and we face the specter of Hindutva and have descending into a country tethering with religious tensions. Pakistan has fallen to that and faces the specter of home-grown radical Islam. I hope Kashmiris can rise above that.

    Whether Kashmir becomes a part of India, Pakistan or a separate entity, a united Kashmir is in everyone’s interest. India and Pakistan are just fighting over who gets to control it while in truth both governments are apathetic to the plight of the people living there or driven away from there.

    While you have the support of many Indian people, you as Kashmiri Pundits don’t need India’s permission to demand your right to return. This is your political fight. I just hope that your Kashmiriyat is more tolerant and works towards ways of unifying Kashmir peacefully rather than resorting to what India and Pakistan have done for 60 years. Why don’t you tell us how can we be of help?

    Any referendum on Kashmir cannot be held tomorrow. But we can start by laying the foundation. Full military withdrawal and a sincere and honest political will to recognize Kashmiri rights would be a good start.

    It is certainly better than the present scenario where you have a fence sitting dumb UPA which wait out while the situation aggravates, an invective-laden Hindutva brigade which wouldn’t care to take the fight to the last man standing and then those hiding behind the so called National Interest whose interest is really the boundary lines of India or Pakistan as should be obvious from this letter that this blog entry references.

  31. Atlantean,

    Your point is well taken.

    Its nobody’s case that India isn’t in the midst of a psy-ops war. And without developing the tools, techniques, front orgs, media savvy and contacts etc, GoI fighting this war on the terms and agenda setup by its ill-wishers is a strict no-no onlee.

  32. @sud: Asking the govt to fight it out is a bit too much to ask. On one hand we’re demanding thin and small governments, on the other we want them to not just facilitate but fight such a non-military war. This psy-war is for our hearts and minds and we who understand its nature and implications have to do the fighting, by increasing awareness among our friends and family.

  33. @B.O.K:

    you said: Ooh, what biting sarcasm! And a mention of Hitler! Frankly, I hadn’t expected Herr Fuhrer to be mentioned before 53 comments or so…

    🙂 pun taken buddy. Thanks for putting me back in my place. You’re right I did go overboard there and owe an apology to Nitin.

    @Nitin: That reply was caustic and needlessly so. I apologize. I could have chosen to reply with the same points that I make earlier without the sarcasm.

    Your casual way with which you discard the hearing the Kashmir People storyline:Please spare us this “hearing the Kashmiri people” storyline. is baffling because they are at the center of your pronouncements.. and no, they do not vote but choose to boycott elections.

    And then you follow: As for op-eds, when was the last time twenty Kashmiri separatists wrote an op-ed trying to convince the others of their point of view?. This reeks of bigotry and ignorance and is what really got me flared up. I provided these links for you to understand that not all separatists are ready to use Master Cells, Al-Fatahs, JKLFs, hijackings, AK-47s and suchlike. and perhaps you may rethink who is really waging the psychological war on Indian minds. Most of these op-eds reason far better than what I read from mainstream media and blogs in India.

    What are we scared of? Your eternal hatred of Pakistan may be tickled once you know that more Kashmirs want to be part of India than part of Pakistan. However most of them want complete freedom from both India and Pakistan. This has to do with the actions of our military forces (the bosses of these people have signed your referenced op-ed).

    And you cannot keep using the constitution of India or historical facts and myths for your authoritarian positions. Indian actions in Kashmir are ethically wrong and we have lost the moral right there because we f**ked up. Please see for yourself. And no, do not respond by saying that these are lies or Pakistan does that too, or look at what terrorists do when they bomb other parts of India because anyway you spin it, there is no moral equivalent to justify this behavior. Its all wrong and my country is wrong in doing this. I cannot support this regardless of my nationality. The longer the armed forces stay there, the more hatred we breed and I lose respect for everything I imagine India to be.

    You can choose your soulless National Interest or rethink what you stand for. And that is not being sanctimonious.

  34. Folks,
    Navneet is a regular troll on all Nationalist blogs and takes an anti stand for everthing i.e., pro terrorist, pro subversion (Christian conversions), anti national integrity… I think Navneet is part of the psyops.. Please ignore the fella, not vene sure he/she/it is Navneet.
    Sound too much like susanna roy

  35. Hello Comrade Navneet,

    >>This cycle of violence can never come to an end if the belligerence from both sides carries on.

    The claim that Kashmiri minorities are being belligerent in asking to be rescued from refugee camps and relocated into a autonomously administered entity in the valley is the claim precisely of Paki-backed extremists who threw them out of the valley in the first palce. It’s interesting to see you peddle the same line while pretending to distance yourself from it. Note that the entire argument is cleverly couched on the “presumption” that the valley “belongs” only to Sunni Muslims, but not to Pandits.

    The fact of the matter that the Pakistani state, Islamic extremists in India, and their communist backers are using Kashmir and “Kashmiris” (in reality, the Sunni Muslim extremists of the valley) as an excuse to attack Indian sovereignty. This is not a new phenomenon. Pakistan has always wanted to break up India, and communist fundamentalists always supported the idea of “self-determination” of the allegedly many “nations” in India.

  36. Navneet- (Double Agent)

    While we shouldn’t ever forget our histories, it is painful and unhelpful to cling to histories when they are soaked in blood and use that memory to make decisions about the present. India has fallen victim to that folly and we face the specter of Hindutva and have descending into a country tethering with religious tensions.
    —courtesy Fascist.(Navneet)

    —– This above cited statement is hackneyed from the RSS brigade- The Hindutatva Taliban version of India they also reason in an identical fashioned ideology:-

    While we shouldn’t ever forget our histories, though it is painful yet helpful to cling to histories when they are soaked in blood and use that memory to make decisions about the present (i.e. destroy the fabric of India). India has fallen victim to that folly and we must use the specter of Hindutva and descend the country tethering with religious tensions.
    —-courtesy Fanatics.(Praveen Tagodia).

    “While you have the support of many Indian people, you as Kashmiri Pundits don’t need India’s permission to demand your right to return. This is your political fight. I just hope that your Kashmiriyat is more tolerant”
    —-Sounds like…..
    —– Kashmiri Pundits since you’ll are already doomed, jut get lost, go burn in hell, rein in your “Kashmiriyat” it’s a nuisance in our “Grand Plan”.

    “Full military withdrawal”
    —– -Kyani is our General, Make way peacefully, the Pakis are coming, chalo Delhi- Paki-Hindi bhai bhai, huh sounds familiar, hmmmmm— 1962—Mao is our Chairman—Chini-Hindi bhai bhai—aaaaaahhhhh! Eureka! Eureka! I got it!
    If Chini-Hindi bhai bhai & Chini-Paki bhai bhai then Paki -Hindi bhai bhai,- choooo chimpal – ‘Down with National Interest, Hail Maoism, long live the Cult of Mao.

  37. Are we a really a liberal democracy as the media and the liberals claim?

    We are way below many countries in the rankings in all indices – political freedom, press freedom, economic freedom, HDI etc.

    I think we should not masquerade as a liberal democracy, instead stick to some kind of authoritarian positions when it comes to issues like Kashmir, NE etc. Anyways the world doesn’t believe we are as liberal as many countries are and so why should we care what the world would think if we conduct more Army operations in Kashmir?

    Extending this thought, why not invade “Azad” Kashmir too?

    No sarcasm in my post. I mean every word. We are NOT a liberal democracy.

  38. Atlantean >>> How many times have you seen Arundhati Roy’s arguments being refuted in an Op-Ed the next day in the same newspaper?

    Atlantean, I am happy no one really bothered to respond to Suzanne’s article. I am happy people chose to ignore her article and hence diminished her importance even more. Do you really think we should take her words as pristine and respond to her non-sense? I didn’t see any logic in her article. So many questions around her article. Some:
    1) What about POK?
    2) What does she mean by freedom. Does she know what after freedom?
    3) When she basically hates the concept of govt, why does she want to prop up another ‘free govt’ in Kashmir after freedom?
    4) Does she know the agenda of these freedom fighters, which is actually imprisoning people in religious non-sense after this so-called freedom is achieved?
    …….

    I wish she comes in some public show like “We the people” [which is a non-sense show by itself] and people bash her with some of these questions. I guess she should be classified as Persona non grata since she is a mobile republic 🙂

  39. why not invade “Azad” Kashmir too?

    To initiate a war for whatsoever reason can never be justified, If ever India indulges in such a deplorable act then it would be as disgraceful as the demolition of Babri Majid, fall of another Pillar.
    Defense is our forte.

  40. Navneet – In your opinion, which of the following best describes the 2002 Gujarat riots?

    a) pogrom
    b) civil disturbance
    c) attempted ethnic cleansing
    d) attempted genocide
    e) genocide
    f) hindu-muslim riots

  41. NRA,
    Asking the govt to fight it out is a bit too much to ask. On one hand we’re demanding thin and small governments, on the other we want them to not just facilitate but fight such a non-military war. This psy-war is for our hearts and minds and we who understand its nature and implications have to do the fighting, by increasing awareness among our friends and family.

    Fair enough. I hope you recognize that what we’re arrayed against is an efficient and well-funded propaganda machine backed by governments, not some misguided foreign souls doing psy-ops on their own.

    IMO, there’re things we free individuals can do (and I daresay, are doing) to combat the ill-effects of malicious psy-war and there’re things that only govt can do – like making laws against abuse of free expression and taking legal action against the violaters, investigate the sources of funding of persistently trecherous front-orgs and the like.

    Venkat,
    Are we a really a liberal democracy as the media and the liberals claim?

    We are way below many countries in the rankings in all indices – political freedom, press freedom, economic freedom, HDI etc.

    We *are* a liberal democracy. Always have been since 1947 save for 6 months in 1975. That you question it based on outside rankings itself is an after-effect of persistent psy-ops.

    The defining characteristic of our state is that it exists for the people and not vice versa (like, say, in China or Pak). Our rights are *fundamental* in that they are not derived from the state’s munificience. Power flows back to the people every 5 years or less not because the state is being generous in submitting to popular will, but because, it has no other choice. Contrast that with China where the aam aadmi’s ‘rights’ are a temporary gift entirely dependent on the whinsical benevolence of the party. A true example of a state where the people exist for the state, where the goverment owns the ocuntry.

    Anyway, enough said. Hope the point is clear, though.

    /Have a nice day, all.

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