Rioting lawyers are rioters

Watch out for the LTTE’s mischief in Tamil Nadu

The LTTE leadership probably calculates that destabilising Tamil Nadu by inciting widespread political violence will serve its interests. If you think that lawyers in the Madras High Court turned into violent mobs, torched police stations and got into street battles with riot police just like that, think again. Political violence doesn’t work that way. It is a deliberate attempt to spark off widespread violence across the state, disrupt internal order, divert the resources of the law enforcement machinery and create tactical space (in both the political and security sense) for the LTTE. In this, the media has played the usual role of sensationalising the entire issue and brazenly projecting a “neutral” morally equivalent perspective between those who broke the law and those who enforced the law.

As for police brutality—the Chennai police did not act with any greater harshness than is the norm. Those norms are not pretty. Those norms must change. But our shock and disapproval of the norms of riot control in India should not get in the way of repudiating the moral equivalence. The media coverage benefits the law breakers, and the law breakers know this.

Both the UPA government in New Delhi and the DMK government in Chennai must do whatever is necessary to control, deter and punish political violence. As the principal opposition party, the BJP must unambiguously signal its support for actions towards this end, and hold the governments to account. For their part, the LTTE’s supporters and their opponents should be welcome to pursue their agenda without resorting to violence. The next few weeks will test Tamil Nadu’s political and social stability: Indians should realise that there is a foreign hand behind the ugly scenes they see on TV.

49 thoughts on “Rioting lawyers are rioters”

  1. LTTE has a HUGE support base in TN, especially among the lawyers who belong to parties like MDMK, PMK etc. I really don’t understand why would lawyers affiliate themselves to political parties…

    Police should ruthlessly crush these terrorist-supporters, however violent they may try to behave. Jaya should not find political opportunity in this and instead condemn pro-LTTE parties and lawyers.

    Police are known to behave brutally and I don’t mind them being such brutal with lawyer thugs who were behaving so bad inside the court premises, but lawyers throwing eggs during HC proceedings, throwing stones and provoking Police, supporting terrorist LTTE can happen only in TN!!!

  2. Attributing the entire event to a foreign hand is simplistic and convenient. Tell me Nitin, how did you arrive at an LTTE hand when your own analysis earlier indicates its leadership is on the run.

    The truth, as a man on the Tamil street will tell you, is more complicated than the bourgeoisie analysis here will ever comprehend.

  3. Did the police have the permission of the judges to enter the court in riot gear in such large numbers even before any provocation? The answer is ‘No’. But the police chief was spreading the lie that they entered with the permission of the judges. This confirms that claim of the advocates that the police had planned and executed the attack. Also contrary to the propaganda by the police that only the lawyers damaged the vehicles, the police were also caught in video damaging vehicles in the court premises. The police even entered the chamber of the lawyers, dragged them out and beat them. This is all an attempt by the old fox Karunanidhi who is now hiding in a hospital, to deflect attention from the Sri lankan issue by creating a new issue of lawyers vs police clash. Karunanidhi is adept in this art. First he organized a human chain in support of Lankan Tamils to deflect attention from the acute power crisis in the state; then when he was unable to persuade the center to do anything meaningful, he said that he was satisfied with the center’s response and tried to douse the fire. But now when it has gone beyond his capability to control, he tries to suppress the protests through the use of brute force.

    The silent majority of Tamil nadu are watching; they may not set fire to police vehicles like the lawyers or other violent protestors but certainly this fire will reduce the congi govt to ashes. It is convenient for non-Tamils to characterize any support for Sri lankan Tamils as support for the LTTE. But this will do nothing to strengthen the federal nature of India. India intervened in Pakistan to create Bangladesh and was very much actively involved in censuring the tiny strategically irrelevant piece of island called Fiji when north Indians were sidelined politically. Tamils ask the question ‘Why India treats Tamils differently’? Don’t say that Rajiv Gandhi was killed when he tried to settle the issue. Did he want to create a separate state for the Tamils? To say that India cannot interfere in the matters of another state is just a lame excuse which will never be accepted by Tamils. Historically Tamil kingdoms have always intervened not only in Sri lanka but also in distant lands such as Indonesia and Malaysia (Sri Vijaya and Kadaram). It is only natural for the Tamil people to expect the Indian govt to intervene to save the interests of their brethren. Tamils were always patriotic and had made many sacrifices during the freedom struggle and fought for the unity and integrity of the nation during the many wars including the Bangladesh Liberation war. They have done all this even though they were never part of any old Indian empire like the Mauryan empire or the Mughal empire. Though they were only part of the British Indian empire they were patriotic enough to strengthen the integrity of independent India. But in return we have got only stab in the back.

  4. No one in TN will vote in the next election with the SL Tamil issue in mind — that should be an indicator of how far away the average Tamil is from this issue, notwithstanding bombastic claims by LTTE cadre trying to spread their propaganda on the internet, even as they are having their asses handed to them on a platter by the SLA.

  5. Let us all remember that the LTTE assassinated a former prime minister and are a genocidal bunch of terrorists who deserve to be eliminated by the SLA army.

  6. @Nilu,

    Dude you rock!

    All you need to say to show that you are a smart guy is to use the boorjuwazee word and say things are too complicated anyway. Perhaps a distillation of your own wisdom would enlighten moi, lumpen proletariat type.

  7. @shaan,

    I listen with sympathy to your arguments in favour of the LTTE.

    But when you say that Tamils are somehow not Indians because they were not part of some empires is when I will ask you to get off. The Tamil kingdoms were as much Indian kingdoms as the Mauryans were an Indian empire. The word empire for the Mauryan state is a silly European construct. Bharatvarsha/Aryavarta was always a imagined community. Don’t let historical charlatanism delude you into making absurd historical arguments.

    I too have sympathy for the Sri Lankan Tamils and feel India should intervene there. But dude, don’t pass off all the LTTE agitprop as gyan.

  8. Quote >> and brazenly projecting a “neutral” morally equivalent perspective between those who broke the law and those who enforced the law. >> Unquote

    Media has vested interests and needs support of BOTH lawyers and police at various point in time in future. How do you think it will take an objective stand and explain correctly what really happened? Especially TN media, that don’t mind openly declaring which party they support and oppose. Hence, please don’t expect the media to be objective in such cases!!!

    LTTE apologists >> please don’t masquerade behind legal semantics. Lawyers threw eggs and beat up Subramanian Swamy and hence police went to the court to arrest these thugs. There is NOTHING wrong in this action of police. People ARE watching this, but are not in favour of lawyers. Most of them I spoke to condemn the lawyers who have made the whole justice system a big mockery. Police already never had respect and lawyers have lost it too. There is no moral high stand that the lawyer thugs can take in this issue. LTTE is a terrorist organisation as per laws of the land and those who support it should be put behind bars and/ or executed.

  9. Guys at INI: along with police reforms, political reforms, please write about Judicial reforms too.

    The way all the thugs rioted, I felt if I were living in Congo or Somalia [with due respect to citizens of these countries!!] where lawlessness is most conspicuous.

    I would attribute this violent behaviour to quota politics, which has let non-deserving but casteist elements into portals of law and other professional colleges.

  10. Gee, some people here on NationalInterest call me a conspiracy theorist when I say things like the author has above. Certainly, the desperate LTTE is trying to stage any incident they can, to create an opportunity for themselves in the state. The LTTE doesn’t have any hesitation whatsoever in trying to drag anyone into their war, as long as they can achieve their goals.

    I certainly agree that BJP should unequivocally condemn the violence by the lawyers in Tamil Nadu as an LTTE dirty trick. It would be nice if Congress reciprocated and rejected its own attempt hijack elections in Karnataka by renting a mob to stage attacks in Mangalore (so-called Rama Sena).

  11. “Both the UPA government in New Delhi and the DMK government in Chennai must do whatever is necessary to control, deter and punish political violence. As the principal opposition party, the BJP must unambiguously signal its support for actions towards this end, and hold the governments to account.”

    UPA and DMK loose nothing from this political violence. Why then will they act against it? As for the Dravidian types, LTTE are “apne log.” They’ve very little incentive to act against it.

    BJP is politically limited in the state. Their stand hardly matters. Just as DMK wouldn’t care as to how many died in Kashmir or Mumbai due to terrorism, the rest don’t care what it does in its backyard.

  12. This is what I don’t understand. TN govt in general and TN people in particular don’t care a lot what happens in Kashmir or North-East. They do react during bombings etc but not as much as the other parts of India react.

    But SL is enough to agitate the political parties mainly and people to some extent [though it may not be a big electoral issue]

    Being a Tamil myself I don’t understand if there is a Tamil Ummah like the Islamic Ummah which cries for what happens in SL, Malaysia etc while ignoring people of its own land. Karunaninidhi would utter no word against Islamic Jehadis who kill thousands in Kashmir but he would pen thousands of lines of poems accusing the Sinhalese. Is this hypocrisy or misplaced identity?

  13. LinkThe Madras high court
    has issued a show-cause notice to the Chennai commissioner of police and the then joint commissioner of police
    (north), asking them why suo motu criminal contempt of court proceedings should not be initiated against officers and constables responsible for the February 19 violence that rocked the HC campus…

    linkMadras High Court has asked the City Police Commissioner and the Joint Commissioner (North) to explain under whose authority police personnel had entered the court complex on February 19 and arrested people…

    Links cleaned up. Please refrain from posting excerpts from elsewhere without your own comment. -Ed

  14. I think we need to be wary of seeing this so-called “foreign hand” everytime something we don’t like happens. Reminds of the days of Indira Gandhi when this was wheeled out as an excuse to lock people for being either a CIA agent or Communist spies.

    Our lawyers and advocates are a joke, prone to complete disrespect for the law and violence. Have you not travelled around UP, for goodness sake, every few month adovocates indulge in this sort of behaviour. During the Gujjar agitation in Western UP during 2007 the advocates were not distinguishable from the mobs. This behaviour is all too typical, rather than exceptional as is claimed in the article.

    Finally, yes there should be no moral equivalence between the police as representatives of the state and civil society at large. The State is meant to conform to a more rigid adherence to the law and set the norms for others to follow; if it starts engaging in uncontrolled violent behaviour willy-nilly this is much worse no matter what the provocation since we should do well to remember that the State is trusted as the final possessor of legitimate violence in any democratic society; if it cannot exercise this right responsibly it is merely a prelude to a wider breakdown in law and order.

    Of course middle-class elites don’t mind police getting brutal because they are very rarely on the receiving end of police violence; once they experience a lathi charge and some beatings, this group will squeal the loudest.

  15. Shaan ji,

    And you conveniently ignore these goons–oh, sorry, learned lawyers–pelted Mr Swamy with eggs inside a court room.

    For those of us with longer memories, the goondagardi of lawyers is well known. Why, only recently in Delhi lawyers went on strike for months protesting a new court complex because that would mean their business would get divided. Similarly, any attempt at having a new bench of high courts leads to strikes. Hell, lawyers have gone on strikes protesting changes in CrPC which would prohibit arrests for offenses carrying less than 7 years of imprisonment–same reason, business would get affected. And I am not even talking about lawyers issuing decrees banning their fellow lawyers from defending suspected terrorists. And these people claim to know the law!

    I find it hard to sympathize with the police. But knowing what kind of goondas lawyers are, and how they are protected by the judiciary which does not have the balls to move against them, their treatment by Chennai police is well justified.

  16. @Conrad

    Dude, so you think the functionaries of the State arrive from some wonderful place? Your view is naive and idealistic: you can’t expect the government official to be any different from the ‘civil society’ he comes from. To apply a higher standard to his behaviour is to ask for heartburn.

    I think the problem is not just with the middle class or the lawyer class. It is with Indian society as a whole which has accepted violent and disruptive behaviour as a norm. It is because Indian society is not at it heart a liberal one. It is thanks to a liberal state that it is compelled to yield to some liberal norms.

  17. >>I think we need to be wary of seeing this so-called “foreign hand” everytime something we don’t like happens.

    Why?

    >>Have you not travelled around UP, for goodness sake, every few month adovocates indulge in this sort of behaviour.

    Apples and oranges. Tamil Nadu, like most of the South, is far more law-abiding and people there are far more peaceable. Therefore when violence does occur in those parts, it is reasonable to assume it is instigated and well-planned.

    >>Of course middle-class elites don’t mind police getting brutal because they are very rarely on the receiving end of police violence

    That’s because the middle-class “elites” are rarely ever on the criminal side of the law.

    >>once they experience a lathi charge and some beatings, this group will squeal the loudest.

    Why and how did you get to experience it? Curious to know.

  18. Rohit & others,
    I did not highlight the fact that Subramanian Swamy was pelted with eggs because it was not the trigger for the violence. Even the media did not highlight this in a big manner. The trigger was the entry of the police into the court premises to arrest the persons connected with the incident without the permission of the high court. Their action is simply illegal. That is the reason for the court to issue notices to the police chief to reveal the names of the officers involved in ordering the arrests as well the lathi charge so that it can take criminal contempt action against the police. Moreover the court has also issued show cause notice to the TN govt asking why it should not be directed to pay for the damages caused to private property and court property, since the police were caught in video – breaking cars and entering the lawyers’ chambers and breaking things up. Even the Chief Justice had to run to save his skin as the police tried to attack him without knowing who he was.

    I am not trying to justify the egg pelting on Swamy or stone throwing on the police. The egg pelting on Swamy was surely uncalled for and a bench of the high court was formed on the same day to initiate contempt proceedings against the advocates involved in this incident. However I want to highlight the fact that the clash was planned by Karunanidhi and executed by the police. If the clash was spontaneous, how do you explain the presence of 500 Rapid Action Force police personnel ready in riot gear?

    Even during the previous govt of Jayalalitha the police broke the legs and backs of several striking govt servants. Almost seven people mostly women committed suicide due to the humiliation suffered at the hands of police. Even at that time the reaction of the general public was that of indifference. This was due to the fact that many govt servants are corrupt. But even those who were even clean were also affected by the police brutality. Similarly now it was only a handful of advocates who threw eggs at Swamy. But all the advocates and court staff who were present in the court were attacked by the police. During Jaya’s regime the result was immediately evident in the general elections. This time too it will happen because even lawyers belonging to DMK are clearly angry with the Karunanidhi regime’s actions. This issue, irrespective of the views of analysts and political commentators will not die down easily. This may even lead to an executive vs judiciary showdown at an all India level since the high court is expected to initiate criminal contempt proceedings against the police officers involved in the incident.

  19. @Oldtimer,
    An example of the middle class ‘elite’ squealing the loudest is the Mumbai attacks. Several bomb blasts across the country did not make the ‘elite’ call for candle light vigils and protests with placards in English. Even after the Mumbai attacks the blasts in Guwahati did not attract the attention of pan Indian middle classs ‘elite’. Only the people of Assam were angry.

  20. >>An example of the middle class ‘elite’ squealing the loudest is the Mumbai attacks.

    Did the police beat them up while “demonstrating” violently?

  21. @Shaan,

    So when police enter high court premises, “illegally” as is claimed, it is somehow legal for lawyers to resist arrest by stoning the cops and burning the police station down?

    Shouldn’t the lawyers have fought the police action constitutionally? Or do you think we can all resort to rioting when we think the cops are doing something illegal.

    Dude, you rock too.

  22. Somehow, I think the police presence was due to intelligence inputs that the LTTE was going to use those lawyers to create trouble. Otherwise, there is no reason why cops will simply want to get into a pointless fight with lawyers.

    Of course DMK will not tell us the truth. But MuKa is nothing if not Der Alte.

  23. Udayan,

    >>Dude, so you think the functionaries of the State arrive from some wonderful place? Your view is naive and idealistic: you can’t expect the government official to be any different from the ‘civil society’ he comes from. To apply a higher standard to his behaviour is to ask for heartburn.

    No of course I don’t, but it is naive and simplistic to pretend that the State is not the main arbiter of norms much more so than separate social actors. There is a reason why the state in almost all functioning nation-states has the monopoly of legitimate violence; this right is ceded to the state and is at the heart of its very existence as an institutions. And yes, of course I expect better from the state for the simple reason that it is meant to represent the people and the nation. The rampaging adovocates represent no-one but themselves. It isn’t heartburn that I am asking for but less complacency and laziness in just relativising the state and its agents as another bunch of thugs in uniform. As long as people keep on justifying state actions of course things won’t change and they will get away with it again and again.

    >>I think the problem is not just with the middle class or the lawyer class. It is with Indian society as a whole which has accepted violent and disruptive behaviour as a norm. It is because Indian society is not at it heart a liberal one. It is thanks to a liberal state that it is compelled to yield to some liberal norms.
    I don’t think so, American, British and French societies are also quite violent and disruptive in their own ways. The French are a joke in Europe for the way that their trade unions and farmers go on strike and fight the police with regularity and both British and American societies have serious problems with crime, juvenile delinquency, gang behaviour and police brutality. It is also worth remembering that these supposedly liberal Western societies were very violent places as a little as a century ago. We are no different really.

    Oldtimer,

    >>I think we need to be wary of seeing this so-called “foreign hand” everytime something we don’t like happens.
    >>>Why?

    Why not?

    >>Have you not travelled around UP, for goodness sake, every few month adovocates indulge in this sort of behaviour.
    Apples and oranges. Tamil Nadu, like most of the South, is far more law-abiding and people there are far more peaceable. Therefore when violence does occur in those parts, it is reasonable to assume it is instigated and well-planned.

    It is relative, I was making a comment about the behaviour of advocates which doesn’t obviously change much whether one is in the South or the North they can be mobilised for these kind of disturbances. There are a number of reasons why the South is more stable than the north, I wouldn’t put it down to the so-called more “peace-loving” nature of Southerners; violence has occurred on a mass scale here too as we saw during the Hogenekkal controversy which displaced tens of thousands, various caste conflicts in between groups like the Malas-Madigas or the Thevars-Pallars or that absurd rioting by Rajkumar’s fans when Veerapan refused to release (almost surreal this incident) the list could run on. The South is better administered, has had more economic growth and much better social development levels than the north on a wide range of indicators all of which make it more stable.

    >>Of course middle-class elites don’t mind police getting brutal because they are very rarely on the receiving end of police violence
    >>>That’s because the middle-class “elites” are rarely ever on the criminal side of the law.

    Are you on drugs or something?! Middle-class “elites” are amongst the worst law breakers in India; whether it is violating traffic rules that endanger other people, especially pedestrians, engaging in domestic violence, burning brides and violating rules, right, left and centre. The only difference is that they can bribe their way out of trouble, frequently get other people, usually those from the underclass to do their dirty work for them and are better at hiding their crimes. The police don’t go after strong targets, if they can help it.

    >>once they experience a lathi charge and some beatings, this group will squeal the loudest.
    >>>Why and how did you get to experience it? Curious to know.

    Mostly during fieldwork for my PhD in Uttar Pradesh, the police are a law unto themselves. I saw a non-violent Gandhian protest against a local Coca-cola plant being roughed by the police, got roughed up myself for taking photos of a polluting sugar distillery and for trying to make sure several families got their PDS rations. You need to get out of our cocoon and smell the coffee of what is actually going on out there. Outside the metropolises, even questioning a policeman can get you into trouble.

  24. >>Why not?

    Because no credible argument is being offered.

    In fact, the rhetorical “why not” as an answer to a “why” is a dead give-away that you have nothing to offer except your prejudice and orchestrated outrage-mongering.

    >>violence has occurred on a mass scale here too as we saw during the Hogenekkal controversy which displaced tens of thousands, various caste conflicts in between groups like the Malas-Madigas or the Thevars-Pallars or that absurd rioting by Rajkumar’s fans when Veerapan refused to release (almost surreal this incident) the list could run on.

    All of it instigated.

    >>Are you on drugs or something?Middle-class “elites” are amongst the worst law breakers in India;

    Putting themselves in confrontation with police? Just who is on drugs, bullshitter?

    Well sure, the middle-class elites within your immediate acquaintance are heavily into bride burning — the company one keeps etc. There are also other middle class elites, corrupt, unscrupulous civil servants to be precise, who live in sylvan precincts of Raj Bhavans and other such grand edifices and feather their nests by licking politicians’ boots and leveling slums at their behest. I am not disputing any of this.

    But the point under discussion is: when do middle-class “elites” demonstrate as mobs, behave as thugs, throw stones at others, set buses on fire and generally do all such jolly good things as to invite police backlash? Answer to the point, Con man.

    >>I saw a non-violent Gandhian protest against a local Coca-cola plant being roughed by the police

    I was there too and I saw the protest too. It was no non-violent “Gandhian” protest at all but commie loons going on rampage damaging public property and putting the safety of several innocent passersby at risk.

    >> You need to get out of our cocoon and smell the coffee

    How about just sticking to the point instead of loudly advertising your lack of argument?

  25. >>Putting themselves in confrontation with police? Just who is on >>drugs, bullshitter?

    >>Well sure, the middle-class elites within your immediate >>acquaintance are heavily into bride burning — the company one >>keeps etc.

    If ‘law abiding’ citizens like you use this kind of language and criticism, it is no wonder that the so called lawyer ‘thugs’ resort to violence when their colleagues are arrested by police inside the court premises without the permission of the High Court.

    >>But the point under discussion is: when do middle-class “elites” >>demonstrate as mobs, behave as thugs, throw stones at >>others, set buses on fire and generally do all such jolly good >>things as to invite police backlash? Answer to the point, Con >>man.

    Remember anti-Mandal protests?

  26. “If ‘law abiding’ citizens like you use this kind of language and criticism, it is no wonder that the so called lawyer ‘thugs’ resort to violence when their colleagues are arrested by police inside the court premises without the permission of the High Court”

    >>>Well, if they create trouble inside the court premises where else can they be arrested? What else should the police do? Let these terrorist-supporting vandals destroy the court premises and wait till they come out.

    Shouldn’t lawyers, of all people, allow law to take its own course rather than taking law into their hands?

    “Remember anti-Mandal protests?”
    >>>Umm…during the anti-reservation protests the protesters immolated themselves. Btw, since when do victims of reservation become “elite”?

    I hope Chennai police give these lawyer thugs the same treatment that the Srilankan army dished out to Prabhakaran and other LTTE terrorists.

  27. @socal,
    The point is – the lawyers created problem only when the police entered the court without permission and tried to arrest their colleagues. The police did not enter due to any prior riot taking place inside the court premises. The egg pelting on Swamy took place two days before the clash.

    >>>Umm…during the anti-reservation protests the protesters immolated themselves. Btw, since when do victims of reservation become “elite”?

    Not just immolation took place. Visit these links – Source 1:…Unbridled violence dismantled the carefully constructed movement moulded on ideals and built on popular support…

    Source 2:…A large number of students committed self-immolation and there have been violent protests everywhere…

    Source 3:…In September 1990, during the anti-Mandal Commission agitation, the agitators burnt the buildings of local courts of Ambala Cantt and a number of files of the cases, including the file of Ram Singh, was destroyed in fire…

    Source 4:…Additional District Judge, Mandi, has awarded Rs 3.6 lakh and Rs 2.4 lakh along with interest at the rate of 12 per cent from the date of filing of these cases to the parents of the victims of Mandal Commission rioting…

    If doctors and medical students are not elite, who is elite? See this.

    <<I hope Chennai police give these lawyer thugs the same treatment that the Srilankan army dished out to Prabhakaran and other LTTE terrorists.

    I see comments similar to this like “I don’t mind them being such brutal with lawyer thugs” and supporters of the LTTE should be “executed”, when the laws of the land clearly does not allow these kind of measures. This only shows that people in our society have their own prejudices and will want to adopt extra legal/illegal measures to counter those who have the opposite view, if they have a chance. This applies to the politicians who misuse the state machinery to achieve their own political ends, the lawyers who indulged in violence, as well as a section of the ‘law abiding’ citizens who criticize the lawyers here.

  28. Conrad,

    We are not attempting to generalize the foreign hand theory here: rather, I think the outbreak of violence is likely to have been instigated by the LTTE.

    The ‘spontaneous’ outbreak theory doesn’t hold up. In fact, as someone pointed out earlier, the presence of a heavy police presence suggests that the TN govt had intelligence about possible LTTE mischief. Lawyers vs cops is by no means a regular game in TN. Mr Karunanidhi is hiding something.

  29. “The point is – the lawyers created problem only when the police entered the court without permission and tried to arrest their colleagues. The police did not enter due to any prior riot taking place inside the court premises. The egg pelting on Swamy took place two days before the clash.”

    Did the lawyers take permission from the court to pelt Swamy with eggs within the court premises? Did any of the lawyers who indulged in violence and vandalism later object to this crass behavior of their fellow lawyers– within the court premises mind well?

    Whichever angle you look at it, the behavior of lawyers is appalling. How difficult was it for them to run to the judges next door and get a stay order on the arrests the police were making? Matter of walking few steps perhaps, but the due course of law could have been followed at least.

    “I see comments similar to this like “I don’t mind them being such brutal with lawyer thugs” and supporters of the LTTE should be “executed”, when the laws of the land clearly does not allow these kind of measures.”

    I don’t see such comments here. But there are disturbing comments here shielding the egregious, and illegal, behavior of some lawyers, apparently LTTE sympathisers. That terrorist groups such as LTTE can subvert legal process right in the halls of justice is more alarming to the civil society than their manhandling by the local police.

    Rest of your comment is speculation. What these lawyers, rather hoodlums, did is an unpardonable fact. That there’s a politician somewhere in this pulling the strings, too is a fact. Ordinary law-abiding citizens(why the quotes?) have no role play in these shenanigans. What they will or will not do given such an opportunity is a matter of speculation.

    Lastly, most doctors and medical students at the school aren’t elites. Most of them come from middle-classes, through sheer merit. They’re at most wannabe elites who see their hard-built careers being destroyed at the whims of politicians. They did not indulge in violence, or destruction of property for that matter. The LTTE-supporting lawyers did.

  30. @socal,
    I have given the links. They explain. I don’t want to argue any further. Its over to neutral minded people who go through this forum.

  31. Well argued, socal and oldtimer. The problem with demonizing the middle class is that they are the only ones stupid enough to pay taxes to the Indian govt. You can rest assured that the rich/corrupt businessmen, politicians, and bureaucrats do not pay a single paisa to the Indian govt. from the ill-gotten wealth.

    Only a fool would pretend that the middle class commits no crime, but it is also the middle class that keeps India’s economic engine runs — “Slumdogs” maybe excellent poverty pornography but they do not have the spending power that runs India’s internal economy. Of course, expecting dishonest marxist “intellectuals” to accept such realities is expecting too much.

    Some leftist sympathizers seem to believe that tarring a few hundred million middle-class Indian with a broad brush of “criminals” is going to win their argument for them, but since when have the leftist dolts had an iota of common sense?

  32. >>Because no credible argument is being offered.
    >>>In fact, the rhetorical “why not” as an answer to a “why” is a dead give-away that you have nothing to offer except your prejudice and orchestrated outrage-mongering.

    Actually, no, it isn’t a rhetorical ploy but a riposte. If you give silly one word answers, you can expect equally silly one word answers back. Where is the proof that you claim a “foreign hand” orchestrated this whole incident?

    >>violence has occurred on a mass scale here too as we saw during the Hogenekkal controversy which displaced tens of thousands, various caste conflicts in between groups like the Malas-Madigas or the Thevars-Pallars or that absurd rioting by Rajkumar’s fans when Veerapan refused to release (almost surreal this incident) the list could run on.
    >>>All of it instigated.

    So what? My point isn’t whether violence was instigated or not but how frequently it occurs and where it occurs. I am not trying to say these incidents weren’t instigated but simply that violence occurs BOTH in north and south India; to try any argue that it hardly occurs in south Indian because somehow southerners are more peaceable is an untenable arguement for me. A lot of the riots in the north are instigated too; the reason they happen more frequently have to do with the lack of willpower of the admin to control them and the nature of political competition amongst different groups that makes their use more frequent.

    >>Are you on drugs or something?Middle-class “elites” are amongst the worst law breakers in India;
    Putting themselves in confrontation with police? Just who is on drugs, bullshitter?
    The question was about law-breakers, nice to see you moving the goal-posts when your arguement collapses.

    Well sure, the middle-class elites within your immediate acquaintance are heavily into bride burning — the company one keeps etc. There are also other middle class elites, corrupt, unscrupulous civil servants to be precise, who live in sylvan precincts of Raj Bhavans and other such grand edifices and feather their nests by licking politicians’ boots and leveling slums at their behest. I am not disputing any of this.

    Yeah, I really spend my time hanging around with bride-burners – you idiot. The point wasn’t about who I spend my social time with – good way to smear people though which seems to be a standard tactic with you. The point is about the sheer number of recorded cases which happen – themselves a fraction of the total number. Why are only civil servants blamed by the way? They are corrupt but among those less likely to indulge in violence. Industrialists are amongst the worst, the number of murders organised by them in places like the mining belts of Jharkhand and MP and the refusal of the courts to judge them have made them a law unto themselves.

    But the point under discussion is: when do middle-class “elites” demonstrate as mobs, behave as thugs, throw stones at others, set buses on fire and generally do all such jolly good things as to invite police backlash? Answer to the point, Con man.

    Refer to the initial point above; middle class elites won’t attack the police because usually their interests are not threatened. Only when an issue that attacks their status like the Mandal agitation will cause them to do this. It doesn’t make them more law-abiding but since you are only concerned with those who break the law when they attack the police this is not surprising. And by the way, what background do you think these advocates come from; they are middle class even though they may not belong to the elite.

    >>I saw a non-violent Gandhian protest against a local Coca-cola plant being roughed by the police
    >>>I was there too and I saw the protest too. It was no non-violent “Gandhian” protest at all but commie loons going on rampage damaging public property and putting the safety of several innocent passersby at risk.
    Are you really this stupid or just going senile. How the hell can you know what protest I am talking about; there are dozens of these protests every year in different parts of India – the one I went to was actually a small one and not covered by the press. As for any communist involvement or use of violence by the protestors this is simply a COMPLETE LIE. I can record this objectively since it was part of my fieldwork and was taped.

  33. Nitin,

    I am happy to take back my words if this was orchestrated by the LTTE. Most violence in our country is instigated one way or another; very little of it is unplanned. As you note politicians have become very adept at creating such incidents and then milking them for political gain. My point was simply that we can’t see the foreign hand everytime this happens, the culprit most of the time is much closer to home.

  34. These “Lawyers”/thugs went and attacked Subramaniam swamy simply because SS is a Brahmin. The LTTE is known to have its claws in the lawyer community in TN, which alone proves the level of subversive behaviour LTTE encourages i n India to get into a “monkey’s hand in narrow-necked jar holding mango” situation, so that the LTTE achieves its goal of “independant eelam” with Prabhakaran as Supreme Regent of Independent Eelam.

  35. >>Actually, no, it isn’t a rhetorical ploy but a riposte.

    If you say so, Con man. Fact of the matter is, you have NO argument to counter Nitin’s hypothesis of LTTE’s involvement in the lawyerly violence of Madras. You’re just blowing hot air.

    >>My point isn’t whether violence was instigated or not but how frequently it occurs and where it occurs

    But “violence” in all of its manifestations is not the point under discussion, outragewalla. The kind of political violence seen in Madras is. It is not everyday occurrence for elite middle-class lawyers in Madras to go on destroying public property, you know, though that maybe much more common in Lucknow or Patna.

    >>Yeah, I really spend my time hanging around with bride-burners – you idiot

    So then how did you deduce that “Middle-class elites are amongst the worst law breakers in India .. engaging in domestic violence, burning brides..” etc, etc, you clown of the millennium? Do you have any facts and figures to back up the claim?

    Well, while on the subject of proofs, try this: post pronto bride-burning stats broken down along economic status lines. While at it, produce stats for domestic violence, traffic violations etc, all of it no doubt proving emphatically that middle class “elites” (including LTTE lawyers and such) are the “worst law-breakers” in India.

    >> And by the way, what background do you think these advocates come from; they are middle class even though they may not belong to the elite.

    You are a laugh, Con man.

    >>As for any communist involvement or use of violence by the protestors this is simply a COMPLETE LIE.

    Oh sure. Just like LTTE lawyers are not middle-class elites according to your Humpty Dumpty school of logic, commies aren’t violent either. 🙂

  36. >>My point was simply that we can’t see the foreign hand everytime this happens, the culprit most of the time is much closer to home.

    Context, Con man, context. The elite middleclass lawyers who turned thugs and destroyed public property happen to be LTTE sympathizers; right now, LTTE is in trouble; LTTE has a track record of instigating violence in TN, including terrorist attacks, bomb blasts and the murder of a former PM; and at this point in time instigating violence again serves LTTE’s purpose.

    What have you got to say in opposition to all of this apart from giving some sermons about why we shouldn’t see “foreign” hand? Moreover, LTTE isn’t exactly “foreign hand” you see. (I disagree with Nitin on formulating the issue that way). It is not a state actor, on the lines of KGB or CIA or ISI, and it has its operatives in TN who are hell bent on forcing India into throwing its weight behind the terrorist outfit against SL government.

  37. >>Actually, no, it isn’t a rhetorical ploy but a riposte.

    >>>If you say so, Con man. Fact of the matter is, you have NO argument to counter Nitin’s hypothesis of LTTE’s involvement in the lawyerly violence of Madras. You’re just blowing hot air.

    Actually no, OldLiar, I asked for proof. The single link in the original post offers none and neither do you.

    >>My point isn’t whether violence was instigated or not but how frequently it occurs and where it occurs

    >>>But “violence” in all of its manifestations is not the point under discussion, outragewalla. The kind of political violence seen in Madras is. It is not everyday occurrence for elite middle-class lawyers in Madras to go on destroying public property, you know, though that maybe much more common in Lucknow or Patna.

    Actually, Liar, it is since you claimed that Southerners are somehow more “peaceable” than northerners. I have lived in Lucknow for a few years and I didn’t see lawyers behaving in the way you claim. What happens in the South I don’t know, but I don’t make silly claims like you choose to do.

    >> then how did you deduce that “Middle-class elites are amongst the worst law breakers in India .. engaging in domestic violence, burning brides..” etc, etc, you clown of the millennium? Do you have any facts and figures to back up the claim?

    >>>Well, while on the subject of proofs, try this: post pronto bride-burning stats broken down along economic status lines. While at it, produce stats for domestic violence, traffic violations etc, all of it no doubt proving emphatically that middle class “elites” (including LTTE lawyers and such) are the “worst law-breakers” in India.

    Actually the phenomenon of dowry deaths has certain spatial and chronological characteristics. It seems to have accelerated from the late 1980s onwards and grown particularly rapidly in urban areas like Delhi and Bangalore. The NCRB recorded 7000 such deaths in 2000 but as several investigations pointed out this was a underestimate since most deaths are not reported to the police and many that are not classified as homicide:

    The actual number of deaths is estimated to be between 15,000-25,000. Investigations into bride-burning have found correlations between income, status and the incidence of violence. (also here) and this has been commented on in the mainstream media.

    More to the point, why should I need to produce detailed statistics on domestic violence etc. To prove anything? I come from this class and live amongst this class; what they do in their daily lives, I see very clearly.

    >> And by the way, what background do you think these advocates come from; they are middle class even though they may not belong to the elite.

    >>>You are a laugh, Con man.

    Great arguement, but since you don’t have one resort to name-calling, it seems that is all you are good for.

    >>As for any communist involvement or use of violence by the protestors this is simply a COMPLETE LIE.

    >>>Oh sure. Just like LTTE lawyers are not middle-class elites according to your Humpty Dumpty school of logic, commies aren’t violent either.

    What a load of tosh – you don’t even know which incident I am talking about and where it happened. The state where this occurred doesn’t even have a communist presence – you utter muppet.

    >>My point was simply that we can’t see the foreign hand everytime this happens, the culprit most of the time is much closer to home.

    >>>Context, Con man, context. The elite middleclass lawyers who turned thugs and destroyed public property happen to be LTTE sympathizers; right now, LTTE is in trouble; LTTE has a track record of instigating violence in TN, including terrorist attacks, bomb blasts and the murder of a former PM; and at this point in time instigating violence again serves LTTE’s purpose.

    I deal in facts, OldLiar, facts. Apart from your inane ramblings you have offered nothing but weakassed conjecture about what you think is the case rather than what actually is.

    >>What have you got to say in opposition to all of this apart from giving some sermons about why we shouldn’t see “foreign” hand? Moreover, LTTE isn’t exactly “foreign hand” you see. (I disagree with Nitin on formulating the issue that way). It is not a state actor, on the lines of KGB or CIA or ISI, and it has its operatives in TN who are hell bent on forcing India into throwing its weight behind the terrorist outfit against SL government.

    So, even though you question why we shouldn’t see a “foreign hand” in this case; you actually don’t think there is a foreign hand? More confused ramblings which indicate that you haven’t been taking your medication.

    Your specific points about the LTTE, however, have been the first intelligent thing you have said in this whole discussion and one that I would agree with.

  38. >>More to the point, why should I need to produce detailed statistics on domestic violence etc. To prove anything?

    Chickening out?

    You claimed that middle-class elites are the “worst law-breakers” in India, and that’s a claim you pulled out of some dark corner in the course of justifying your bizarre thesis that middleclass elites are on the side of police in “police vs thuggish lawyers” only because police don’t beat middleclass.

    Obviously you only blabbered some nonsense. Apart from some mumbo jumbo about the “spatial” characteristics of dowry deaths, you have no proof to justify your claims about the “worst lawbreakers” in India.

    And you ask for proof for an _hypothesis_ that Natin has drawn. Hypotheses are just that, Comrade Con. Some people use context, common sense and experience to arrive at hypotheses to try and explain current events, whereas some bozos come along and claim that we shouldn’t jump to “hasty” conclusions about the presence of fire just because smoke was sighted. 🙂

    >>Great arguement, but since you don’t have one resort to name-calling,

    But what argument do _you_ have to exclude thuggish lawyers from your definition of “middle class elites”, except assigning whatever meanings you want to to words, Humpty Dumpty like? Your haste to exclude lawyers from the evil tag “elites” is indeed laugh-worthy, because you’dn’t do that if you didn’t realize you were shooting yourself in the foot. 🙂

    So you ended up inventing a middle-class quantification scale, with “middle class oppressed” (like no doubt the lawyers) at one end, and “middle class elites” (the “worst lawbreakers” of India) at the other.

    >>I deal in facts, OldLiar, facts.

    I see. Like “middle class elites” are “the worst law-brakers in India”, and “lawyers are not middleclass elites”.

    What else do you deal in — charas? hashish?

    >>even though you question why we shouldn’t see a “foreign hand” in this case; you actually don’t think there is a foreign hand?

    Let me put it this way if comprehension is eluding you. I see reason to see the hand of LTTE in disturbances in Madras. Don’t get hung up on the phrase “foreign hand”. Do you see LTTE as “foreign hand”? Feel free. You don’t? Feel free too. I’m tempted to invent a foreign hand qualification scale (“foreign hand lite” — LTTE — “foreign hand hardcore” — CIA etc), but heck, you already sound very confused.

  39. >>Chickening out?

    No.

    >>You claimed that middle-class elites are the “worst law-breakers” in India, and that’s a claim you pulled out of some dark corner in the course of justifying your bizarre thesis that middleclass elites are on the side of police in “police vs thuggish lawyers” only because police don’t beat middleclass.

    Of course they are; they break laws systematically. Of course middle classes tend to be indifferent to police brutality, this is because they very rarely experience it.

    >>Obviously you only blabbered some nonsense. Apart from some mumbo jumbo about the “spatial” characteristics of dowry deaths, you have no proof to justify your claims about the “worst lawbreakers” in India.

    No, I provided the numbers you wanted, I provided the links you requested. You don’t want to read them or acknowledge them; that is your problem, sonny, not mine. As usual when faced with facts, you can’t cope and retreat into generalised accusations.

    >>And you ask for proof for an _hypothesis_ that Natin has drawn. Hypotheses are just that, Comrade Con. Some people use context, common sense and experience to arrive at hypotheses to try and explain current events, whereas some bozos come along and claim that we shouldn’t jump to “hasty” conclusions about the presence of fire just because smoke was sighted.

    Don’t be a coward and hide behind Nitin; YOU stated LTTE involvement as fact and implied that there was evidence to support this claim. When called on it, surprise, surprise, your earlier claim which masqueraded as fact has now turned into a “hypothesis”. Whenever you are challenged on any of your points, instead of replying directly, you just change the goalposts to distract attention from the fact you have no leg to stand on.

    >>But what argument do _you_ have to exclude thuggish lawyers from your definition of “middle class elites”, except assigning whatever meanings you want to to words, Humpty Dumpty like? Your haste to exclude lawyers from the evil tag “elites” is indeed laugh-worthy, because you’dn’t do that if you didn’t realize you were shooting yourself in the foot.

    There is nothing “evil” about elites; elites can be good or bad it depends on the context. I am not interested in children’s morality plays which is how you seem to see things. I have no problems in excluding lawyers from this tag, though they are unproblematically middle class by Indian standards.

    >>So you ended up inventing a middle-class quantification scale, with “middle class oppressed” (like no doubt the lawyers) at one end, and “middle class elites” (the “worst lawbreakers” of India) at the other.

    I have never used the term “middle class oppressed” this is your invention. I have also not provided any sort of typology of who is oppressing whom in India, this is the product of your fevered imagination. If you want to seriously engage in any sociological discussion of class in India, it will be a lot more complicated than you show here.

    >>I see. Like “middle class elites” are “the worst law-brakers in India”, and “lawyers are not middleclass elites”.

    If you want to believe that our middle class is not; then that is your prerogative. Being a product of this class I am not surprised at your lack of self-awareness.

    >>Let me put it this way if comprehension is eluding you. I see reason to see the hand of LTTE in disturbances in Madras. Don’t get hung up on the phrase “foreign hand”. Do you see LTTE as “foreign hand”? Feel free. You don’t? Feel free too. I’m tempted to invent a foreign hand qualification scale (”foreign hand lite” — LTTE — “foreign hand hardcore” — CIA etc), but heck, you already sound very confused.

    The confusion is yours. First you claim factually there is LTTE involvement, when challenged to provide any evidence, you then hide behind the arguement that it is a hypothesis; then you lapse into some odd attempt to classify different agents according to some slide-scale rule. Your whole arguement is lacking in any factual evidence, demonstrates confused thinking, unclear conceptual categories and no reasonable logic at all. If you had any sensible points to make (which I doubt) it has got lost in the morass of invective and and conjecture you seem to think make a credible debate.

  40. >>First you claim factually there is LTTE involvement,

    Where? Quote me Con man. Or, well, feel free to chicken out of proving this claim too. 🙂

    I thought you could pull only that “worst law-breakers” stunt out of thin air; looks like you can pull several other stunts as well.

    And while you struggle to quote me to the effect that I _factually_ claimed LTTE’s involvement (good luck on that), let’s go back to your rhetorical “why not” in 23. Do you at least have a counter-hypothesis as to why we may not suspect LTTE’s hand given the current situation? Or is a hot air sermon all you’ve got?

  41. Some very interesting articles and opinions in today’s IE about this – 112 criminal cases pending on egg throwers and editorial page article by executive editor of IE. Unfortunately I am unable to find the links. Can anyone help me?

  42. I hear that all the leadership of LTTE has deserted SL leaving the population to suffer at the hands of the SL army. Where do you think they are? Must be in TN causing disruption and the political parties (to which the lawyers belong; what a shame!) are busy taking advantage of the situation. May be there is a tunnel connecting north SL to TN. Wouldnt surprise me.

  43. >>First you claim factually there is LTTE involvement,
    >>>Where? Quote me Con man. Or, well, feel free to chicken out of proving this claim too.
    >>>>Context, Con man, context. The elite middleclass lawyers who turned thugs and destroyed public property happen to be LTTE sympathizers; right now, LTTE is in trouble; LTTE has a track record of instigating violence in TN, including terrorist attacks, bomb blasts and the murder of a former PM; and at this point in time instigating violence again serves LTTE’s purpose.

    OldLiar, caught with his pants on fire again.

    >And while you struggle to quote me to the effect that I _factually_ claimed LTTE’s involvement (good luck on that), let’s go back to your rhetorical “why not” in 23. Do you at least have a counter-hypothesis as to why we may not suspect LTTE’s hand given the current situation? Or is a hot air sermon all you’ve got?

    Struggle – don’t make me laugh I quoted you above and everyone can just scroll back to see where you came up with this peice of insightful genius. So what is the above statement I quoted of you except a factual assortment of LTTE involvement; when asked to offer proof you start whining and hiding behind claims of “I see reason blahblah” and “hypothesis”. You are laughable as well as a fraud.

  44. The IPKF’s end result was supposedly , first, autonomy & then freedom for Tamil Lankan’s – but on one side was a amateurish-almost stupid-rajiv & on the other-prabhakaran-a psychopath on the rampage btw was the cunning old fox jaywardene, who fooled both of em & had power crazy prabhakaran accepted the Indo-Sri Lanka Accord, the world would have been a better place for the hapless Srilankan tamil’s – but all’s not yet lost for the s.l. tamils, the sooner ltte is decimated the better – then pressure on Sri lanka to grant equal democratic rights & autonomy for a start- & the way you sound reminds me of my punjab prob. in it’s nascent stages…

  45. >> Context, Con man, context .. bomb blasts and the murder of a former PM; and at this point in time instigating violence again serves LTTE’s purpose.

    > OldLiar, caught with his pants on fire again

    What exactly is your difficulty with absorbing a factual context that supports a hypothesis in favor of suspecting an LTTE hand?

    If you are disputing it, my loonie Con man, let me know which part you are specifically disputing. Do you dispute that LTTE is in trouble? Do you dispute that it is a terrorist outfit? Do you contest that it staged violence in TN?

    Once you clear that up, go back to my original question of showing where I “factually” claimed LTTE involvement.

    >>don’t make me laugh

    Please feel free, my dear Larva. Do laugh. It will be an interesting sight to see you laugh with your ass scorched.

  46. Fine each rioter $500 and those who istigate these riots should be made to pay restitution to all those who lost property and belongings i mean put you foot down and say we will no longer allow a mob of hooligans to ruin someones lives becuase they choose to act like a bunch of hoods

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