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	<title>Comments on: The coming fratricidal war among Pakistan&#8217;s jihadis</title>
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	<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/</link>
	<description>The Education of an Opinionated Mind</description>
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		<title>By: Canada Guy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131597</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131597</guid>
		<description>Recent history in Pakistan is similar to events in Iran during the rule of the Shah.  Both leaderships were strongly backed by the US, and were involved in widespread repression or attacks on their own people.  Both regimes followed policies that were deeply unpopular domestically.  In Iran, this led the revolution of 1979 which created an Islamic Republic. Could something similar happen in Pakistan?

&lt;a href=&quot;http://watching-history.blogspot.com/2009/10/future-of-pakistan.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://watching-history.blogspot.com/2009/10/future-of-pakistan.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recent history in Pakistan is similar to events in Iran during the rule of the Shah.  Both leaderships were strongly backed by the US, and were involved in widespread repression or attacks on their own people.  Both regimes followed policies that were deeply unpopular domestically.  In Iran, this led the revolution of 1979 which created an Islamic Republic. Could something similar happen in Pakistan?</p>
<p><a href="http://watching-history.blogspot.com/2009/10/future-of-pakistan.html" rel="nofollow">http://watching-history.blogspot.com/2009/10/future-of-pakistan.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131594</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131594</guid>
		<description>However, I am not too worried about  Pakistani Taliban coming to power. I think that is a pretty good outcome for India -- the punjabi Taliban and Lashkar jihadis  are equal-opportunity haters (who will have their hands on nukes at that point). 

 On the balance, Indians can rest easy that a country that is no longer under the control of the Army would consider India just one of many targets to hate in this wide world.  The situation today is a whole lot worse, where India is the sole target of Pakistani nukes purely because the Pakistani army and educated elite are in control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However, I am not too worried about  Pakistani Taliban coming to power. I think that is a pretty good outcome for India &#8212; the punjabi Taliban and Lashkar jihadis  are equal-opportunity haters (who will have their hands on nukes at that point). </p>
<p> On the balance, Indians can rest easy that a country that is no longer under the control of the Army would consider India just one of many targets to hate in this wide world.  The situation today is a whole lot worse, where India is the sole target of Pakistani nukes purely because the Pakistani army and educated elite are in control.</p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131593</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131593</guid>
		<description>libertarian, Agree with you on all points.  The Pakistani Army&#039;s worst enemy is itself, and taking care of our own problems first is a better plan for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>libertarian, Agree with you on all points.  The Pakistani Army&#8217;s worst enemy is itself, and taking care of our own problems first is a better plan for now.</p>
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		<title>By: libertarian</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131592</link>
		<dc:creator>libertarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131592</guid>
		<description>@srm: my point was about the futility of any prescription requiring long-range planning in Pakistan - especially involving abandoning of &quot;cherished&quot; ideals. When you call for &quot;bringing the Pakistani army to its knees&quot; - seems like Pakistan will be on it&#039;s back before the army is brought to its knees; it will be the last institution to collapse. And talking of reforming mullahs is missing the point: a sufficient chunk of the population is radicalized enough that reformed mullahs will provoke mullah-lynchings. The cancer is too widespread in society - it&#039;s a society that&#039;s rotten from the inside out. Between their feudal underpinnings, hyper-religious society, overarching military, jihadi factories, and absent political institutions they&#039;ve got enough problems to overwhelm the best-intentioned efforts. So why even bother with prescriptions? Better to concern ourselves with managing the toxic fallout while Pakenstein is committing sepuku in slow motion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@srm: my point was about the futility of any prescription requiring long-range planning in Pakistan &#8211; especially involving abandoning of &#8220;cherished&#8221; ideals. When you call for &#8220;bringing the Pakistani army to its knees&#8221; &#8211; seems like Pakistan will be on it&#8217;s back before the army is brought to its knees; it will be the last institution to collapse. And talking of reforming mullahs is missing the point: a sufficient chunk of the population is radicalized enough that reformed mullahs will provoke mullah-lynchings. The cancer is too widespread in society &#8211; it&#8217;s a society that&#8217;s rotten from the inside out. Between their feudal underpinnings, hyper-religious society, overarching military, jihadi factories, and absent political institutions they&#8217;ve got enough problems to overwhelm the best-intentioned efforts. So why even bother with prescriptions? Better to concern ourselves with managing the toxic fallout while Pakenstein is committing sepuku in slow motion.</p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131590</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131590</guid>
		<description>@.,  Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.  Did you mean that the Indian deobandi mullahs themselves are not very forward looking? That is also true -- in fact, only Maulana Syed Kalbi in the AIMPLB speaks rationally and sensibly all the time.  The deobandi/sunni maulanas are just as bad as the pakistani mullahs when it comes to having a progressive outlook for this century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@.,  Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.  Did you mean that the Indian deobandi mullahs themselves are not very forward looking? That is also true &#8212; in fact, only Maulana Syed Kalbi in the AIMPLB speaks rationally and sensibly all the time.  The deobandi/sunni maulanas are just as bad as the pakistani mullahs when it comes to having a progressive outlook for this century.</p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131589</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131589</guid>
		<description>If the jihadis can get brainwashed one way on the influence of the mullahs, then surely the mullahs can also brainwash them in a positive way, but first the mullahs need to have their head screwed on straight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the jihadis can get brainwashed one way on the influence of the mullahs, then surely the mullahs can also brainwash them in a positive way, but first the mullahs need to have their head screwed on straight.</p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131587</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131587</guid>
		<description>libertarian,

&quot;Which universe are we talking about? Surely not the one we inhabit.&quot;

So what exactly is your objection?  That it is not possible today? In that case, I did preface those two points with the precondition that the Army&#039;s pernicious influence on Pakistani politics needs to be eliminated today.   

The larger point is that just physical violence against the jihadis is not a long-term solution. There are enough and more to replace the ones that are taken out.   The real key is to undercut the ideological basis.

The other alternative is to strengthen public institutions so that jihadis can actually be prosecuted without the Army intervening on their behalf or the courts playing &quot;revolving door&quot; with convicted terrorists.

Both options are not workable in today&#039;s pakistan, but that does not mean conditions that will make them work cannot be created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>libertarian,</p>
<p>&#8220;Which universe are we talking about? Surely not the one we inhabit.&#8221;</p>
<p>So what exactly is your objection?  That it is not possible today? In that case, I did preface those two points with the precondition that the Army&#8217;s pernicious influence on Pakistani politics needs to be eliminated today.   </p>
<p>The larger point is that just physical violence against the jihadis is not a long-term solution. There are enough and more to replace the ones that are taken out.   The real key is to undercut the ideological basis.</p>
<p>The other alternative is to strengthen public institutions so that jihadis can actually be prosecuted without the Army intervening on their behalf or the courts playing &#8220;revolving door&#8221; with convicted terrorists.</p>
<p>Both options are not workable in today&#8217;s pakistan, but that does not mean conditions that will make them work cannot be created.</p>
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		<title>By: libertarian</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131586</link>
		<dc:creator>libertarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131586</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;1. Bring all clerics under a re-education program to stop preaching hate and follow guidelines, like the deoband clerics in India already do.
2. Change all textbooks at all leves, especially those taught in Madrass
control of the clergy and what they preach to the public&lt;/i&gt;

Which universe are we talking about? Surely not the one we inhabit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>1. Bring all clerics under a re-education program to stop preaching hate and follow guidelines, like the deoband clerics in India already do.<br />
2. Change all textbooks at all leves, especially those taught in Madrass<br />
control of the clergy and what they preach to the public</i></p>
<p>Which universe are we talking about? Surely not the one we inhabit.</p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131584</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131584</guid>
		<description>&quot;For an average pakistani, all of this ideological foundation is provided by the logic of the local Mullah, which implies that after bringing the Pakistani army to its knees (since the Army plays the clerics against each other to maintain their supremacy, and will not allow any dilution of the jihad ideology of these clerics).&quot;

I wanted to edit the post to fix this, but the above should read as

For an average pakistani, all of this ideological foundation is provided by the logic of the local Mullah. However,  influencing the mullah can only be done  after bringing the Pakistani army to its knees and essentially remaking the army into a professional army that does not try to kill all civilian leaders on a regular basis.
This is because the Army plays the clerics against each other to maintain their supremacy, and will not allow any dilution of the violent jihad ideology espoused by these clerics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For an average pakistani, all of this ideological foundation is provided by the logic of the local Mullah, which implies that after bringing the Pakistani army to its knees (since the Army plays the clerics against each other to maintain their supremacy, and will not allow any dilution of the jihad ideology of these clerics).&#8221;</p>
<p>I wanted to edit the post to fix this, but the above should read as</p>
<p>For an average pakistani, all of this ideological foundation is provided by the logic of the local Mullah. However,  influencing the mullah can only be done  after bringing the Pakistani army to its knees and essentially remaking the army into a professional army that does not try to kill all civilian leaders on a regular basis.<br />
This is because the Army plays the clerics against each other to maintain their supremacy, and will not allow any dilution of the violent jihad ideology espoused by these clerics.</p>
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		<title>By: SR Murthy</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131583</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Murthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131583</guid>
		<description>Unless the Pakistani state takes the following steps to undo all the brainwashing done during the cold war,  there is no chance of the average Pakistani seeing the light. In order of decreasing importance w.r.t. getting a handle on this problem, the focus has to be on rolling back the violent ideology that trains so many Pakistanis on a daily basis. 

For an average pakistani, all of this ideological foundation is provided by the logic of the local Mullah, which implies that after bringing the Pakistani army to its knees (since the Army plays the clerics against each other to maintain their supremacy, and will not allow any dilution of the jihad ideology of these clerics).

With such a focus, the following steps seem like an obvious choice:
1.  Bring all clerics under a re-education program to stop preaching hate and follow guidelines, like the deoband clerics in India already do.
2. Change all textbooks at all leves, especially those taught in Madrass
control of the clergy and what they preach to the public

All sounds fine in theory so far.  Now, the problem is that  the clerics possess the divine authority to override any one else in Pakistan, so they cannot be challenged by non-clerics or non-muslims.  By definition, such non-believers cannot challenge any muslim cleric on his or her ideas --- any challenger to the ideology must be a Hafiz or higher in the hierarchy of islamic scholars.  The only such people with that background are the Indian islamic scholars and clerics who can argue with the Pakistani clerics in their own language.

 One possibility  is to try a debate in the islamic format between Indian and Pakistani clerics on mass media in Pakistan,  in order to erode the &quot;divine sanction&quot; that the pakistani jihadi terrorists pretend to have while spreading hate and mayhem.   Anything else will allow the clerics to claim that &quot;islam is in danger&quot; to reap the paranoia of a poorly informed public as a wall around the cleric and his ideology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unless the Pakistani state takes the following steps to undo all the brainwashing done during the cold war,  there is no chance of the average Pakistani seeing the light. In order of decreasing importance w.r.t. getting a handle on this problem, the focus has to be on rolling back the violent ideology that trains so many Pakistanis on a daily basis. </p>
<p>For an average pakistani, all of this ideological foundation is provided by the logic of the local Mullah, which implies that after bringing the Pakistani army to its knees (since the Army plays the clerics against each other to maintain their supremacy, and will not allow any dilution of the jihad ideology of these clerics).</p>
<p>With such a focus, the following steps seem like an obvious choice:<br />
1.  Bring all clerics under a re-education program to stop preaching hate and follow guidelines, like the deoband clerics in India already do.<br />
2. Change all textbooks at all leves, especially those taught in Madrass<br />
control of the clergy and what they preach to the public</p>
<p>All sounds fine in theory so far.  Now, the problem is that  the clerics possess the divine authority to override any one else in Pakistan, so they cannot be challenged by non-clerics or non-muslims.  By definition, such non-believers cannot challenge any muslim cleric on his or her ideas &#8212; any challenger to the ideology must be a Hafiz or higher in the hierarchy of islamic scholars.  The only such people with that background are the Indian islamic scholars and clerics who can argue with the Pakistani clerics in their own language.</p>
<p> One possibility  is to try a debate in the islamic format between Indian and Pakistani clerics on mass media in Pakistan,  in order to erode the &#8220;divine sanction&#8221; that the pakistani jihadi terrorists pretend to have while spreading hate and mayhem.   Anything else will allow the clerics to claim that &#8220;islam is in danger&#8221; to reap the paranoia of a poorly informed public as a wall around the cleric and his ideology.</p>
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		<title>By: fchiramel</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131582</link>
		<dc:creator>fchiramel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131582</guid>
		<description>Good article!
I think change will have to start with the millions of sympathizers you mention, and then work towards the more proximate actors in this sordid drama. Sadly, that is going to take more bombings and loss of life. Much of Pakistani upper/middle class and it&#039;s breathless press is so drunk on the theory that India, Israel and the USA are constantly scheming to discredit and/or anihilate the Land of the Pure (and that the pre-eminent superpower China is their only friend) that it will need something of breathtaking scale to shake them out of that inebriation. I sincerely believe that once that change of will happens or is forced to happen, everything else will fall in place, and then the details of ISI management, principals and proxies will matter less. The many thousand talib churned out by the frontier madrassa assembly line will of course need some effective occupation, and (just wishful thinking) maybe they will turn on the military-feudal complex when they realize how badly they&#039;ve been had and bring about real change there. India of course will continue to be recepient of much transference angst from such evolving pains, but should try it&#039;s best to refrain from providing the MF complex the diversion they are constantly seeking.     

Regards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article!<br />
I think change will have to start with the millions of sympathizers you mention, and then work towards the more proximate actors in this sordid drama. Sadly, that is going to take more bombings and loss of life. Much of Pakistani upper/middle class and it&#8217;s breathless press is so drunk on the theory that India, Israel and the USA are constantly scheming to discredit and/or anihilate the Land of the Pure (and that the pre-eminent superpower China is their only friend) that it will need something of breathtaking scale to shake them out of that inebriation. I sincerely believe that once that change of will happens or is forced to happen, everything else will fall in place, and then the details of ISI management, principals and proxies will matter less. The many thousand talib churned out by the frontier madrassa assembly line will of course need some effective occupation, and (just wishful thinking) maybe they will turn on the military-feudal complex when they realize how badly they&#8217;ve been had and bring about real change there. India of course will continue to be recepient of much transference angst from such evolving pains, but should try it&#8217;s best to refrain from providing the MF complex the diversion they are constantly seeking.     </p>
<p>Regards.</p>
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		<title>By: libertarian</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131580</link>
		<dc:creator>libertarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131580</guid>
		<description>Nitin, your take on Clinton&#039;s message(s)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nitin, your take on Clinton&#8217;s message(s)?</p>
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		<title>By: Nagarajan Sivakumar</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131572</link>
		<dc:creator>Nagarajan Sivakumar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131572</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;strike&gt;If&lt;/strike&gt; When the United States bails out of Afghanistan, it is possible that Mullah Omar, the Haqqanis and other Gul &amp; Co proxies will all make a play for power in Kabul.&lt;/i&gt;

FIFY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><strike>If</strike> When the United States bails out of Afghanistan, it is possible that Mullah Omar, the Haqqanis and other Gul &amp; Co proxies will all make a play for power in Kabul.</i></p>
<p>FIFY.</p>
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		<title>By: libertarian</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131567</link>
		<dc:creator>libertarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131567</guid>
		<description>Much food for thought. Great insight. Ties together well - and finally makes some sense to this reader - along with Rohde&#039;s insider account in NYT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much food for thought. Great insight. Ties together well &#8211; and finally makes some sense to this reader &#8211; along with Rohde&#8217;s insider account in NYT.</p>
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		<title>By: Balaji</title>
		<link>http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/10/29/the-coming-fratricidal-war-among-pakistans-jihadis/comment-page-1/#comment-131544</link>
		<dc:creator>Balaji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=4281#comment-131544</guid>
		<description>Given that Pakistani Army will never act against Taliban (with capital T), Lashkar and to some extent against Al-Qaeda, what shud India and US be doing? Just strive to protect our territories and stay away from Af-Pak? What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that Pakistani Army will never act against Taliban (with capital T), Lashkar and to some extent against Al-Qaeda, what shud India and US be doing? Just strive to protect our territories and stay away from Af-Pak? What do you think?</p>
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